All-In Recruitment is a podcast by Manatal focusing on all things related to the recruitment industry’s missions and trends. Join us in our weekly conversations with leaders in the recruitment space and learn their best practices to transform the way you hire.
Transcript
This transcript has been edited for clarity.
Lydia: Welcome to the All-In Recruitment podcast by Manatal, where we explore best practices, learnings, and trends with leaders in the recruitment space. If you like our content, please subscribe to our channels on YouTube and Spotify to stay tuned for weekly episodes.
My name is Lydia, and with us today is Brajesh Singh, who is the Director of Talent Acquisition for APAC, and the Middle East at Capgemini.
Good afternoon, Brajesh. It's good to have you with us today, all the way from Singapore.
Brajesh: Good afternoon, Lydia. It's a pleasure to be here. Thanks for inviting me.
Brajesh's Journey in the Talent Acquisition Space
Lydia: You've spent a large part of your career in technical recruitment for large multinational technology companies. Can you tell us a little bit about these roles and how you've built your capabilities for TA in the tech space?
Brajesh: Great question Lydia. I think I've got around 19 years of experience in talent acquisition. I started as an individual contributor where I learned the basics from an agency which was where I got recruited to my campus, and then move to in-house.
I've done roles in offshore groups in part of the low-cost country model -sourcing and delivering - to the high-cost country models. So, sitting in India and delivering [results] in the US, UK, Europe, or Asia.
Then I moved to more front-end models, where in India specific market, and then Singapore specific market, etc. From there, I moved on to leadership roles, which has been around 14 to 15 years where I've been managing Asia Pacific and the Middle East. That's been my journey into talent acquisition.
I've also held an HR business partnership, HR integration, kind of role for a brief stint of two-plus years when I was with my previous organization, but this has been my forte.
So, talent acquisition and HR business partnerships are what I've held so far.
Best Practices for Managing Talent in a Challenging Environment
Lydia: What are some observations you've made about the demand and availability of talent in this space, particularly in the regions that you've overseen in the past decade or past five years?
Brajesh: It's a very interesting question because the talent in the Asia Pacific and the Middle East is not like any matured country's talent. It's a very diversified region with unique nuances, whether it is cultural or expectation-wise. So, it's not like one big Indian market or one big US market. The talent movement is very different.
For example, if you take a country like Japan, it has an employment-for-life kind of culture. So, people moving from one job to another or one company to another is a rarity. While in Vietnam, people are jumping around with the growth that they are experiencing as a country. Singapore, Hong Kong, Australia, and New Zealand are more Westernized markets, so you will see they behave like a matured market, and you see the talent movement.
But when it comes to talent availability, this region is very distributed. So, you will have certain skills available widely, but other skills, such as ERP skills, are hard to find. So, from a talent acquisition perspective, it's a challenging market because the scale is always going to be a problem. It's not a volume market.
Lydia: So, what are some challenges you have faced in attracting and retaining talent, and how have you worked around them?
Brajesh: Recently, we have had more compensation-related challenges. We take a mature approach to it, as a function and as an individual. Compensation has become a big problem in recent times because people are getting uncanny increments, which are difficult to sustain in the long term. Also, the expectation of hybrid remote work and flexibility of working has become more important and challenging.
In countries like the Philippines, there are people who work in different provinces and do not want to come to the office even four days a week. They want 100% remote work if it is possible.
Elements like these have become a challenge in recent years. Compensation has been a challenge forever because there will always be employers who have deeper pockets and better offers. Overall, when you weigh the decision, it should be based on your career trajectory, the overall improvement of your compensation, and financial rewards. But today, it is more on remuneration.
Lydia: What are some best practices or ways to manage this environment?
Brajesh: According to my opinion, it has to be a combination of rewards, benefits, growth, culture, and flexibility. All of these elements need to come together today to be an attractive employer. Your employer value proposition (EVP) has to be defined in such a way that you bring in all the elements and advertise it throughout the whole cycle. This way, you can attract and retain talent at the same time.
Roles of TA Specialist & Aspects of Future-Proofing Recruitment
Lydia: Let's move a little bit deeper into the EVP point. Moving back into the role of a Talent Acquisition Professional today, you've described the complexities around attracting talent.
So, how would you describe the role of a TA professional in today's context? What do TA specialists need to be? What do they need to have as skill sets?
Brajesh: To answer this question, I think the foundation doesn't change. Your core competency of talent acquisition remains the same, including your ability to source, end-to-end recruitment, stakeholder management, reporting, and so on.
But I think the most important element for any talent acquisition specialist today is to be a strategic advisor. You have a seat at the table, and you have to make effective use of that seat. So, be a strategic advisor, bring in data-driven insights for the business to make informed decisions, and be an enabler.
These are the three core skills that any talent acquisition professional or specialist needs today to succeed.
Lydia: Has your approach to talent acquisition changed in the last five very disruptive years?
Brajesh: Yes, it has. I inherited a disintegrated functional talent acquisition function, and from there, we moved to a standardized and structured model. With disruption, we have moved to a digitized and personalized model, which has more to do with digitization, technology usage within the function, the overall experience, a lot of focus on data, and insights that you're providing. The kind of strategies that you're bringing to the table for new market entry, expansion, new products, new ways of working, etc.
So, that's how my talent acquisition has evolved. The next target is to move towards a creative and personalized or human-centric talent acquisition model. You are in a proactive mode of aligning with the strategic imperatives, building the pipeline, bringing in the talent at the right time, and delivering growth while functioning as a function of enablement.
Lydia: TA leaders also need to look into strategies that would obviously fulfill the business needs today, but also forecast the future in terms of town needs, etc.
So, what might be some ways to think about future-proofing recruitment?
Brajesh: If you look at the talent acquisition maturity model, most companies operate in a structured and standardized mode, right? Levels two, three, and four are where the future lies. Level three is more digitized and personalized, incorporating technology, experience, and so on. The fourth level, according to a survey conducted by one industry analyst, has only 26% of employees present, indicating a lot of ground to cover. Therefore, creative and human-centric approaches are where the talent acquisition framework needs to move. It must include everything from governance, reporting, core recruiting, EVP, employer branding, insights, culture, and experiences. All of these elements need to be integrated.
Today and in the future, talent acquisition will be approached in a different way. Companies will engage with talent communities, including passive candidates, and find ways to convert them into active candidates, successful hires, and eventually, valuable employees. Although the metrics remain the same, the methods of achieving them are changing rapidly.
The elements for future sustainability for talent acquisition include governance and operation, recruitment as the core activity, irresistible experiences, trusted employer brand as messaging, internal mobility, and flexible job models. These are the hard elements that any talent acquisition framework should have to stay competitive beyond 2023.
AI: the Future of Talent Acquisition
Lydia: And it's not just internal stakeholders, but external stakeholders as well. Speaking of technology, automation, and the emphasis on human-centric approaches, there is also a widespread adoption of AI in many parts of businesses today.
So, in terms of talent acquisition professionals, what are the ways they can think around AI in order for them to benefit?
Brajesh: Great question, Lydia. I am very passionate about AI, technology, and tools, especially in talent acquisition. I believe AI can be implemented at each stage of talent acquisition, from resume grading to the automation of responses, to social outreach, which plays a huge part in employer branding and engaging talent communities. Building dashboards with insights for problem resolution, whether it is access management or anything else within the cycle, AI has a space in each stage.
The effectiveness of the technology depends on the strategic imperatives and the outcomes that we want to achieve. If it aligns with our organizational strategic imperatives, then we can employ everything. Otherwise, we can pick and choose where to put it in place and optimize the usage to achieve the desired results through AI.
AI is definitely going to be an integrated, essential part of any system, not just in talent acquisition but in all areas. However, there is enormous scope for usage in talent acquisition, and in my opinion, it is the future.
Lydia: Definitely, there are so many different use cases in talent acquisition, such as engagement, reaching out to a different talent pool, and ensuring that you get the right kind of hires, etc. On that note, I'm also curious to know your opinion about some sentiments around AI. Do you think it will erode the role of a Talent Acquisition Professional or enrich it?
Brajesh: Great question. It really depends on the strategic imperatives of the organization. Everything has to be aligned with the strategic imperatives and the direction that we want to go and achieve as an organization. AI is really optimized and can give a 30%, 33%, and beyond productivity boost if used intelligently. It can also give effectiveness and efficiency boosts, which enables talent acquisition to perform the role better and quicker. Using AI in the right way can have a positive impact on the turnaround time and cost in the cycle.
I do not see a reason why anybody should be nervous about it. It's about how intelligently you utilize it to enable yourself towards success, rather than looking at it as a replacement for human sourcing. Recruitment is still about the human element, as we are dealing with humans. There has to be a connection or rapport, and overall experience, that we cannot build without a human touch.
I don't think talent acquisition professionals need to worry about AI. We need to use it to benefit our function so that we can perform much better than what we are doing today. We should focus on utilizing the technology rather than being averse to it. That's what everyone should be thinking about.
The Current TA Trends
Lydia: And we're seeing many trends in talent acquisition. We see a rise in contract work and a more distributed or fragmented workforce. There's also a need to build connectivity in the workforce and the team in tandem with the productivity output. So, what do you look for when you search for top talent?
Brajesh: Let me address the changing dynamics of talent pools across the world. It's evident that talent pools are changing, and this trend is also observed in the Asia Pacific and Middle East regions. While contract work and gig work are becoming increasingly prevalent in some countries, others are only just beginning to consider these options. However, overall, the change is slow. Building and engaging talent communities from diverse backgrounds and experiences is critical. This approach is fundamental to any future-focused talent acquisition, attraction, engagement, and conversion process.
Now, to address your question regarding what we look for when hiring top talent. I believe that the two most important attributes for success are a growth mindset and a positive attitude. A growth mindset involves being comfortable with failing fast, getting up, and trying again. In this era of disruption, where the frequency and pace of change are rapidly increasing, the ability to adapt is crucial. What works today may not work tomorrow, and hence the growth mindset is essential. Additionally, a positive attitude is equally important to succeed.
To summarize, the changing dynamics of talent pools require building and engaging talent communities from diverse backgrounds. When it comes to hiring top talent, possessing a growth mindset and a positive attitude are critical attributes for success.
Lydia: It's also in tandem with a growth mindset. Earlier, you were talking about excellence in execution. So, in terms of a growth mindset for a person in TA or a recruiter, what are the components of that?
Brajesh: Although we have transformed significantly in our journey, the building blocks remain the same. The core competency of a recruiter will always stay the same, but I believe that the most important attributes of a recruiter today include being a strategic advisor who brings data-driven insights to help the business or leadership make informed decisions. Additionally, they must enable growth and facilitate business outcomes as a function of their role. It's crucial to recognize the value of having a seat at the table and using it strategically to contribute from these aspects for any talent acquisition specialist today.
Lydia: So, what would you say is the role of an employer to foster a high-performance culture, today?
Brajesh: In my opinion, companies with high-performing cultures motivate employees to make decisions and act upon their choices.
The growth mindset needs to be instantaneous, and the fear of failure needs to be eradicated. That's when high performance is cultivated.
When you remove the fear that failure is going to impact you in any shape or form, creativity, and other important qualities get encouraged, leading to high performance. Therefore, I believe that companies with high-performance cultures should cultivate this mindset to achieve success.
Assessing EVP
Lydia: Going back to the topic of EVP, which we discussed earlier, there are certain steps to consider in developing a strong EVP. By doing so, you can ensure that your talent strategies are aligned with both culture and skills.
What are some steps to take to develop a strong EVP, so then you make sure that your talent strategies for both culture and skill are aligned?
Brajesh: Thank you for your brilliant question. Designing an EVP may seem simple, but it actually requires a lot of work. The first step is to baseline or assess what you're currently offering. Then, you should conduct focus group interviews and surveys with your existing and past employees to understand what motivates your high performers.
It's essential to be very focused on the group you choose to define these building blocks of your EVP. This will help you define the key components of your EVP, such as financial rewards, benefits, career development opportunities, working environment, and flexible arrangements.
Once you've identified these building blocks, you can write a crisp, short, and inspirational employee value proposition statement. After that, it's crucial to promote your EVP through the right channels throughout the employee lifecycle, from engagement to onboarding. Finally, it's essential to review the results and effectiveness of what you've implemented.
That's how an EVP is designed and implemented. It may not be an easy process, but it's worth the effort to attract and retain top talent.
Lydia: You mentioned assessing the success metrics of an EVP. In your opinion, how often should you reassess or revisit your EVP?
Brajesh: EVP is primarily designed to improve the attraction and retention of the workforce. Therefore, whenever these two metrics show trends of increase or decrease respectively, you should revisit your EVP. If either of these indicators is not working, then it needs to be restructured or redesigned to cater to newer needs. In my opinion, you should reassess your EVP whenever these two indicators are indicating a need for it.
Lydia: And there's no specific timeframe obviously, right?
Brajesh: It really depends on the evolution of your organization and the phase of maturity you're in. For example, as a mature organization, you'll be much more stable, and you'll see trends peaking or going down in an annual cycle at best, or maybe six months. However, if you're a growth organization or a startup, you can see these trends in weeks. Therefore, the frequency of reassessing your EVP cycle will depend on the maturity of your organization and your current position. The cycle of refreshing your EVP should work accordingly for you.
Lydia: So, what role can attach an Acquisition Professional play to ensure that that positive candidate experience - born out of that that EVP - translates to fulfilling employee experience?
Brajesh: I think many organizations are now trying this out, but I firmly believe that today's talent acquisition has an expanded role. When I was mentioning a future-looking talent acquisition framework, it should have an irresistible experience. This is what we are talking about.
Not only the candidate experience, not only the onboarding experience, but it is beyond that. So in the first 30, 60, or 90 days, what are the touchpoints? How can talent acquisition step in and make that journey smoother, and the experience more pleasant? That will basically have multiple advantages, but just from a talent acquisition perspective, it would really help in terms of improving your employee affairs.
Imagine an employee coming through and having a great experience in the cycle of selection, right from the gate engagement to onboarding, and then settlement, which is your 30, 60, or 90 days. This engagement has given this employee such an experience that he or she is more willing to bring more of them into the organization.
Willingly, you do not have to run campaigns. Willingly, they will come and start referring, which will have a positive impact on your pipeline of talent. So, at the end of it, it's always going to pay off.
Impact of Recruitment Tech
Lydia: We spoke a little bit about the technology earlier, and it was mainly about AI in the different types of technologies we see today. But let's talk about the impact of recruitment technology, such as Manatal’s applicant tracking system, for instance, especially in hiring, etc.
What are some key benefits that you've seen?
Brajesh: Great question.
In my opinion, recruitment technology is an absolute necessity today for the function, whether it's talent acquisition or HR technology. Ignoring this technology can negatively impact efficiency, productivity, and deliverables. It impacts the dashboards, data-driven insights for decision-making, and the strategic element of advisory. Achieving all of this can be seamless with the utilization of these technologies.
So, whether you use it in standalone bits and pieces, or you use it as a one-stop solution, it's an absolute necessity. I think it's just a matter of time before organizations move from piecemeal use to a one-stop solution because it all makes sense. It's all integrated, and it gives you the output that you require. And most importantly, it's easy to use, less time-consuming, and less expensive.
Thus, I think that yes, it's an absolute necessity today, and in the future, everyone will have to graduate to using HR technology.
Brajesh’s Advice to New Players in the TA Game
Lydia: So, we focused on talent acquisition extensively, with a primary focus on being future-centric, adapting to various disruptions that are becoming increasingly closer to us, and exploring the use of technology.
What advice would you give someone who is starting out in talent acquisition today?
Brajesh: Lydia, my advice is going to be very different. I think anyone who is starting out or has a career in talent acquisition should know that talent acquisition is not HR. According to me, it is sales, and I have termed it noble sales, and ultimately, reasonable sales. I'll tell you the reason why I have coined this term.
The commodity that we are dealing with, or the instrument of sales for us, is the human being cost. You impact somebody's career, livelihood, etc. That's why I've coined the term global sales for this profession. But it's not really a core HR job; it's out-and-out sales. There will always be Lights, Cameras, and Action on you, especially if you're in a services organization or a technology-enabled organization that is dealing with the improvement of revenue and growth through headcount improvement.
Any organization that is dependent on this will face the same story. In many ways, it can be a thankless job as well. Therefore, you will need to build those competencies within yourself, including the tactfulness of stakeholder management, persistence, or thick skin, and the competency of technical enablement, whether it is technology or sourcing, or recruitment.
All of that has to be enabled within yourself. But very importantly, it needs to be understood right from the beginning that this is a function that will always have a lot of pressure. There will always be Lights, Cameras, and Action, and it's important for everybody to understand that it will have that kind of focus on it. And it is not for the faint-hearted. Therefore, think again before stepping in because once you step in, you're going to love the journey. But it is not going to be easy.
Lydia: Thank you so much, I appreciate you being very generous with your insights and your findings, as well as the ways in which talent acquisition professionals, or even recruiters, should be looking at a role. I think that's been very valuable. I'm sure there will also be listeners and viewers who would like to connect with you. So, where can they find you?
Brajesh: So, before they find me, Lydia, I also wanted to make a disclaimer: all the opinions expressed by me have nothing to do with any of the organizations I have worked for or am currently working for. They are completely personal opinions based on my experience over the years and as a function.
Secondly, if you want to find me, look for me by registering on LinkedIn; that's where I'm active most of the time. If you want to find the company I work for, you can go to www.capgemini.com. It's a comprehensive website, and you can explore different countries and relevant materials. That's how you can find us.
Lydia: Thank you, Brajesh. We have been in conversation with the Director for Talent Acquisition for APEC and the Middle East at Capgemini. Thank you very much for joining us, and stay tuned for more weekly episodes from All in Recruitment.
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