EP49: Trendence Institut - Data-Driven Employer Branding (With Carl-Christoph Fellinger)

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Transcript

This transcript has been edited for clarity.

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Lydia: Welcome to the All-In Recruitment podcast by Manatal, where we explore best practices, learnings, and trends with leaders in the recruitment space. If you like our content, please subscribe to our channels on YouTube and Spotify to stay tuned for weekly episodes.

My name is Lydia and joining us today is Carl-Christoph Fellinger of Trendence Institut in Germany.

Welcome to the show Christoph.

Christoph: Well, thank you for having me, Lydia. And I'm happy to be here.

Introducing Christoph's Role

Lydia: So, tell us a little more about your role, Christoph. I understand you're in charge of strategy and partnerships at Trendence with a focus on employer ratings. Is that right?

Christoph: That is perfectly correct. So, the Trendence Institut is a German-based market research organization that has been doing research in employer activity and employer branding for nearly 25 years. And what we specialize in is the employment markets, trends, and topics of the employment market with a focus on Germany, but also in global research for clients, like big German discounters, automotive, energy organizations, and so on and so forth.

My role and strategy in partnerships are helping the organization move towards a perfect offer to our consumers, customers, and forging partnerships with other data institutions as we believe that the real benefits of data come together if you combine various data sources to give a complete picture.

We are very strong in surveys and we are mending that with hard data from a job market from statistics and so on and so forth, and provide that to our clients to give them a holistic picture of their position in the market and the market itself.

Insights from 20 to 25 Years of Research

Lydia: Now 20 to 25 years is interesting. Because so much would have changed from the methods of branding yourself as an employer to the ways in which you engage with your audience, right? Especially so in different disruptive periods that we've seen recently.

So, have there been any insights that you've gained or trends in the past 20 to 25 years?

Christoph: I would maybe mention two things. One is more on a meta level and that is people react in similar situations. Especially today.

You've been seeing that both the job market and the preferences of talent are very influenced by the crisis. All of a sudden, you see that there is an increase in job security as a factor for switching jobs and the openness of switching jobs is dropping in times of crisis. But right after the crisis, it's more or less the reverse situation. People now looking for jobs and are much more open to change.

The other thing, I think has a little bit to do with societal developments; topics of flexible work conditions have been increasing over the years. Obviously, if you compare it to 10 years back, we didn't have the means, the technology, and the opportunities for that. Now, that is the factor that we see high up in the factors influencing employment choices. So, these are things I would say that have changed over time.

Lydia: And in the past, let's say two and a half years or maybe three years [ago] that we've seen a shift in moving from the Great Resignation back to the Great Attrition or the sort of coming back to the job market and being an employers market altogether.

Right now, in some places, have there been any kind of particular insights that you've had over this kind of behavior that affects employer ratings?

Christoph: Well, at the beginning of the pandemic, it was a shock both for the companies, as well as for the talent market. Nobody moved. We've seen the hiring freezes under companies, and nobody dared to switch up, and probably people also had their minds elsewhere. Obviously, we all had that changed in the middle of 2022.

All of a sudden, we saw a boost in positions opening up in the market for recruiting and employer branding. Then this terrible war started in the Ukraine, and at least affected Europe. Companies, again, starting to hire much more carefully than before with the whole energy topic, and so on. So, this is what I would say what I've observed in the past two years.

Methodology for Top Employer Rankings

Lydia: And on that note, Trendence also has an annual ranking for top employers. How do you go about what is the methodology behind this ranking? What are some key characteristics of a great employer?

Christoph: We do have an annual ranking for the German market, where we are asking a total of 130,000 people on all levels - starting with pupils going over to students at universities, blue and white collar. You already noticed that we are all about segmentation and target group focus and we asked them for their general preferences in terms of factors that they consider when they are looking for a job.

We also asked them how they see a preset of foreign companies and then select the ones that they know and that they deem attractive. Then we ask, “How do you see that company?” Fast forward, the result is ranking in terms of the most attractive employers for certain target groups and certain segments.

Lydia: What are some key characteristics that make up a great employer? For instance, maybe the 2022 ranking? I'm not sure that the 2023 one is out yet.

Christoph: It was just released recently, and I did look it up and I would like to illustrate also my favorite topic, the differences between target groups, if I may. Because I brought you two examples, comparing German business professionals. If you ask them, “What are the main factors?” Yes, it is salary. Salary is a big factor when switching jobs, but almost at the same height is respect for people; respect that the company is showing for the people, and its flexible working conditions.

Lydia: So, when you say respect, what does that entail?

Christoph: That's a very interesting question. Because we do a deep dive into these factors and it has a lot to do with appreciation of the individual's performance or contribution. If you contrast that, for instance, with blue-collar workers, obviously, salary is a very important factor. But it is even being trumped. That's so interesting with what we said before that job security, in fact, trumps every other factor, which is not the case with business professionals.

So, you already see a difference between target groups, which is why I'm not a big fan of saying, “Okay, what are the most important factors?” Because the answer will not help the organization to attract the right people, because depending on the target group, these examples or these factors might differ tremendously.

Importance of Data in Shaping Employer Brand

Lydia: In that sense, how can data contribute to shaping an organization's employer brand?

Christoph: I would say in three ways. The first would be in helping to understand who you are and who you're trying to attract. And that is, for me the foundation of any authentic and effective employer brand.

You need the data to understand who you are, and you need the data to understand what the people you're trying to attract are like and what they are looking for. Building on that, it helps you to identify levers that you as an organization have, that you can build your employer brand and communicate your employer brand on the one hand.

Some of you are strong in certain areas, and you only have to find the match with what your target group is looking for. At the same time, you might find out certain things that are important for your target groups, where you might be not that strong. And that gives you some work to do internally. Now, again, if you do the data biased, you’re still working with the right levers. You cannot do it without data.

And the third aspect is data helps you to monitor the progress both on the improvements and as we are in a changing world, it changes both in your organization and externally. So, data is the foundation at the very starting point, it helps you to do the right things and it helps you to see and document your progress.

Lydia: You mentioned earlier quite crucially, in order to use data in its most effective way, you have to know what the data points are and get the full picture, right? So, what channels do you look at before, let's say, an organization that is about to revisit, or just create a brand new employer brand, and they're looking at an EVP? What are some data points you think they should be looking at?

Christoph: The very good news for any organization is that they already have the data points sitting at their computers.

The first data points obviously are your own employees, which you can use to better understand your strengths, weaknesses, and your organization. Then you can help them to understand the candidate journey, the touch points where people are coming into the organization and how they experience the organization.

So, if you combine that, that's where I would start in understanding the touch points along the candidate journey in the organization, the employee lifecycle that is crucial for the attractiveness of the organization for its employees, and to understand exactly what makes it attractive to them. This is where you collect your signals and you can do that in numerous ways.

Externally, obviously, you're well off if you partner with an organization like ours with market research. Internally, you could do it yourself. My recommendation is always to synchronize both. Because it will only give you the full picture if you know what's important to the external world and how you look like on the internal.

Lydia: Yes, indeed. Also dealing with two types of audience bases, which is one, a very high context audience in-house and also a slightly lower context audience that is sitting outside looking in.

Christoph: I'm not even so sure if this is high or low context. There are simply different contexts. Obviously, if you're switching jobs, you're interested in other things and other aspects than when you're inside the company, right? Yet, what happens is, if the outside person comes into the organization, they immediately switched to being an inside person. If you want to reduce your early attrition rates, now you have to synchronize both the external communication with the internal. This is why you need both sides and it's both very relevant context.

Lydia: Absolutely, yes, I totally agree. And in the HR data that you get, as you mentioned earlier, these data points inform the kind of communications and the timing in which messages go out, and the tone in which you take. So, in terms of the target audience, in what ways can HR data help organizations to identify and even understand their target audiences to enhance employer branding campaigns?

Christoph: Let me give you one example of a recent client of ours, a big German discounter approached us and did a 360 brand analysis with us, and they selected their most crucial hiring target groups. That will be one recommendation already to get your business goals and your hiring goals based on your business needs clear and focus on these groups.

And they did an analysis, like I said, on the standard attraction drivers that we know based on our research, both internally and externally, and did a gap analysis with it. So, where do they actually stand? Where do they actually have a communications topic? Because they're very strong inside, but it's not seen on the outside. And what's important on the outside, where they're not that strong on the inside gave them measures to work on internally.

And they have that for all the 32 countries that came up with local or regional action plans. They differ. And the interesting thing is, if you're an international company, no market is the same. It's just that there's no one-size fits-all.

Because target groups differ per country, even with the same questions, we see different answers across cultures. That's very interesting. And organizations are also different even if you might be one company. So it might be different in Brazil, than it is from India, or than it is from Sweden. So, this is why synchronizing external and internal view is important. And then breaking it down into what to do? Is it a communication issue? Or do we have an internal HR topic that we need to work on?

Practical Examples of Synchronizing External and Internal Views

Lydia: So, are there any practical examples of how this sort of synchronization that you mentioned can be turned into action?

Christoph: Let me maybe give you one example. Because I think it's quite interesting. Cultural differences is very relevant in communication. So, we asked what do we understand about appreciation for performance?

So, we've seen that that is a very prevailing driver. It turns out that, in general, and I must excuse myself for generalizing a bit, if you speak about cluster data, it’s over generalization. There are also exceptions, but in the majority of cases for Asia, appreciation performance looks like a job promotion or is a job promotion. That's what's understood. In southern Europe, again, it's a salary increase. In Northern Europe, it is really an appreciation of performance; meritocracy more or less.

Now, if you keep that in mind for your communication, you have to use different examples in different regions. You have to communicate differently.

Lydia: It's interesting that you say one is a job promotion, and the second is a salary increase and the third is maybe even a public acknowledgment or some kind of meritocracy, they all move towards growth in some form. Could they all be referring to pretty much the same thing as growth next stage in the evolution of the company? Is that what they see appreciation as?

Christoph: I think this is highly individual and what people feel. Let’s take the Northern Europe for an example. I think that the point there is like public appreciation. Maybe, “Tom, you did a great job.” “Lisa, thank you for your contribution to this and that project,” While it might be in a different context in mind, “Based on your projects X Y, Z, we're going to move you into the organization.”

So yes, it is all the same direction. Yet, what it means in different contexts might be different. And you will only have the effect of retention in that case if you adhere to these differences.

Lydia: So, what might be some challenges that organizations usually face when they try to collect or analyze HR data for employer branding and even recruitment really by its extension?

Christoph: There's a tremendous number of possibilities of data points and data itself and you can get lost in data. I know that and I've learned that the hard way.

Lydia: So many types of data, so many issues.

Christoph: There is so much data and all of it appears to be interesting.

But there's a difference between interesting and relevant data, which for me, the starting point is, before you look into data, you need to become clear on what is the topic that you're trying to solve.  What is the aim? Why are you going into the data? And then an assessment of what data will help me with the solution.

Then, the next step is checking for the data sources, data quality, and data consistency. Keep in mind that it's always good to have a mixture of data sources, and it can be even good to have a mix of data types. So, my favorite topic is amending either qualitative data, survey data with hard data, like you have from performance marketing, or from your ATS and so on and so forth. Or vice versa, to understand the driver, actually. And the magic happens if you come in with both types of data.

So, getting clear on what am I actually trying to solve and what data sources could potentially help me in giving answers to my questions. So, you have to have the questions clear and then an assessment of the data and the quality and consistency of data. It’s quite helpful to ask, “Do I get similar effects from two data sources?” And, “Do I have the proof that I'm looking for or taking the right conclusions out of my data source?”

Lydia: Have you seen in Trendence, typically, different clients go about the employer brand and try to elevate their employer ranking? Have you seen if there have been any examples where a really effective and efficient use of data has proven to elevate the employer brand or increase retention in any way?

Christoph: Absolutely, we see it in the rankings with our clients because the rankings are the tip of the iceberg, obviously. The whole knowledge is lying underneath our studies, right? And we've seen clients that have been really working with the insights, adjusting their communication.

For instance, we've seen an increase in their activity and the feedback is that they also see an increase either in traffic or in hires, or time to hire more or less. So again, the more you tailor your communication to what is important to your target groups, the more successful you'll become and obviously that is also going to show in the rankings.

Implementing DE&I Strategies

Lydia: DE&I is a huge topic and a very critical and pertinent one nowadays, especially. So, what are some ways to think about implementing DE&I strategies in a hiring process, for instance? Just going beyond the employer brand, employee campaign, and moving into the hiring process, that whole candidate experience.

Christoph: Let me answer that the first part is, again, in communication, to accept that there are differences between men and women, for instance. If you generalize diversity in these most obvious target groups, there are differences that you need to address in your communication. We have the data to prove it.

Further down the line in the recruitment processes, you have differences in terms of who is part of the selection committees in interview rounds, trying to represent that exact diversity that you're trying to hire. Also, in the selection process, from the ones that are actually selecting people.

We are all prone to bias, but trying to reduce the bias, or at least, make it transparent, where there might be bias coming in. So there's a whole number of activities that if you ask me, need nowadays to include into your recruiting. That already would help to work on the DE&I strategy.

The Impact of AI Tools

Lydia: We are also seeing generative AI tools - for just about every function today in the business - you've got an AI tool to help you out. That's really just changed the nature of work and change the role that may be recruiters or even employer branding specialists and talent acquisition professionals play today.

So, what would you say is the impact of generative AI tools and AI technologies, especially in recruitment, which covers also the employer branding side?

Christoph: It's going to be tremendously interesting. I think it's too early to really define how it is going to change, but I see two big topics. One is on the system side, on the data science side of it, AI enables us to understand patterns in data much easier, and that also goes for the companies obviously.

Bridging over to the individuals in the talent acquisition organization; data and data insights, I predict will be much more accessible and easier to understand, therefore helping them to work easier. And on the rather operational side of talent acquisition, I think generative AI will be a big supporter in the work of coming up with alternative job titles, job descriptions, and also training. One of my favorite examples is an act of SALSA (Saving Access to Laboratory Services Act) who said, “Hey, I'm using ChatGPT, to test me as an act of SALSA, and I prompted it to be a candidate that is hard to convince.”

Lydia:  Oh, interesting.

Christoph: In a certain way, I think it was a Python developer or a senior Python developer, and I asked them to test me, and let me try to convince them to play hard to get with ChatGPT. I love that example. And that is an example where generative AI even might help us in training.

Lydia: In training. That is a very creative use of it. I think that's brilliant and that's probably something I'm going to try and do to see what ChatGPT can bring us.

I think it's great to hear about how there are so many different ways to reconcile what's inside, and also what's outside using communication, using the different data points, and also being on top of the different trends that are happening that affect your space as an employer.

Thank you very much for your insights and your time today, Christoph. Please drop us your contact details. Our audience will be able to find out a little more about the work that you do.

Christoph: You'll find me on LinkedIn, and I'm happy to connect if anyone is interested in further exploring my favorite topic of breaking down analysis into target groups.

Lydia: I wish we had more time to talk about the target groups. And maybe that's a conversation for another time. So thank you very much, Christoph.

Christoph: Thank you, Lydia, for having me.

Lydia: And we have been in conversation with Carl-Christoph Fellinger of Trendence Institut in Berlin, Germany. Thank you for joining us this week. If you like our content, please subscribe to our channels to stay tuned for more weekly episodes from All-In Recruitment.