All-In Recruitment is a podcast by Manatal focusing on all things related to the recruitment industry’s missions and trends. Join us in our weekly conversations with leaders in the recruitment space and learn their best practices to transform the way you hire.
Transcript
The transcript has been edited for clarity.
Lydia: Welcome to the All-In Recruitment podcast by Manatal, where we explore best practices, learnings, and trends with leaders in the recruitment space. If you like our content, as usual, please subscribe to our channels on YouTube and Spotify to stay tuned for our weekly episodes.
My name is Lydia, and joining us today is Signe Linneboe, Head of People and Organisation at Lift Relations in Denmark. Hello, Signe. Thank you for joining us on this podcast.
Signe: Hello, Lydia. Thank you so much for having me.
Signe’s Journey within the HR Field Over the Past Decade
Lydia: So Signe, you've spent your career nearly two decades now, focusing on recruitment and HR. And in recent years, your role has been that of a people leader, where you initiate culture and organizational changes.
Walk us through your journey in this field and some of the observations you've made over the past 10 years in HR.
Signe: I started out as a recruiter, and I think the mission for me was always to revamp the way that HR was. 20 years ago, it was more like an admin department in the organization.
And for the last 10 years, there's been a very clear generation shift in how to approach the value that we contribute with, now to be called people and culture, which I think is a lot closer to the outcome that we're actually affecting. And I've always been a firm believer in what you commit, what you promote, which is really about walking the talk. I think that is very important for an organization, for people in culture, and in particular, people managers.
And I think the podcast that Manatal is also doing actually puts people in culture on the road map and better embeds us in the organization as a very vital partner in how to drive.
Cultural Fit: What to Consider?
Lydia: Recruitment brings people in, and as head of people, you are looking at a mix of culture and a mix of dynamic behaviors and personalities contributing to baking a business success.
So, it's great that you're in the organizational culture space, especially because of the macroeconomic environment that we're in. Developing and cultivating organizational culture is certainly an evolving challenge.
How would you define culture in organizations today, especially after the pandemic and now during an economic pinch or recession?
Signe: I believe that culture is liquid in terms of the people you have in the organization, in the market, and in the different scenarios. And I think that it's very important to remember that it's not something you can control.
“And culture will always be determined by the people and their behavior. A lot of companies might struggle because they want to control culture. And it's just as futile as controlling people. It's simply not happening.”
Lydia: What do you mean by controlling culture?
Signe: So controlling culture says, “This is our culture. We want people who look like this, who has this background, who has been pedigreed from these kinds of companies or consultancies.” That is controlling culture. And you can do it as long as you understand that if you keep putting the same ingredients into the same pot, the pot will never change.
But luckily, people do change. So, even though you might be hiring for the same two or three profiles, all around, their lives might take another direction, which will impact their own personal values, which they will bring to work, which will impact their behavior at work as well.
Therefore it’s impossible to control culture. And I think there's a reason for that. What you can look at is alignment. It is very important that you can look at value alignment.
Most companies would say, “We have these values, sustainability, trust,” and so on, to make sure that there's a value alignment that the people you get on board are aligned with the values because that creates trust, as well as a trust to really disagree, which is important.
I think going after the pandemic and the recession, it is so important to have value alignment. If not ready, a lot of people will experience a bit more work because we've had to let some people go. However, you can do that if you understand the mission, have everyone aligned on the values, and stand on this together.
Lydia: Today, the talent space is incredibly competitive. And we often see the push to hire for skill, first and foremost, especially when it comes to technical roles, that culture fit tends to take a backseat in this instance. So, what should recruiters be equipped with when they're trying to assess the cultural fit of candidates?
Signe: I want to start by saying that I don't believe in culture fit aligned to what we just spoke about, about controlling culture. I believe in cultural enrichment. And again, you need to make sure that you have the value alignment. In order to do successful recruitment and talent acquisition (TA), you need to go back to your leader, and the leadership of the company and say, “If these are values, what behavior do we want to see from the values?”
The behavior can be analyzed. It’s important to go and look for people who are craft fit and who are culturally enriching to the organization. But you need to understand and you need to have documented the behavior that the culture is going to be enriching.
Lydia: Cultural enrichment or culture add is interesting. In some instances, we hear that term around. But how do you measure that? How do you analyze, and how do you present the findings from the behavioral analysis?
Signe: You would have to make alliances with the current organization and then make a couple of sentences on each value and what behaviors we see out there. And then you also need to have a decision-making step by saying, “If these are our values, this is the behavior that we see our values is motivating, is this the behavior that we want?”
You need to have a consensus. You might need to backtrack a little bit, change your value and get another behavior if you think it's not fruitful. So, you need to do the internal mapping first. And then you can do the external.
Strategizing Around an Economical Pension
Lydia: And going back to your experience in organizational culture, essentially, we saw an economic pension. We've seen mass layoffs recently in large corporations all over the place.
So, what might be some ways for HR leaders to pivot in organizations, and people strategy within this context?
Signe: It's important that an organization is always very clear on what the terms are because I don't see an organization or company as a family. It's more like we're friends. And there are terms to every relationship. So, what are the terms? What is it that we need to provide? What product is it that we want to create and enrich the world and our customers with? So, look at the product strategy. See it like an onion. In the middle of the onion is the product strategy.
“This is our primary product. This is the product that we need to keep improving. This is the product that we need to keep offering on the other side of the recession. In any kind of change in the market, what is the craft that needs to be?
There needs to be evolution around this product. And then you have to ask, “What kind of behavior is it that we need for this craft to be enriching?” Because we all know the saga of hiring someone who's brilliant at the craft, but on the cultural and personal level, it just didn't work out, which is really painful for companies.
So, you need to consider these three layers; Understanding the product strategy, the market fit, understanding the craft that needs to deliver this product, and then understanding which kind of behavior is enriching. And also, we talk a lot about how it's even just as important to define what's the opposite behavior that's not enriching.
Lydia: For an organization that is in its very early stage, a startup, for instance, it is scaling fast. And HR leaders are probably already thinking about these things. So, how do you make sure that you are actually getting people who would enrich you towards the end or further into the recruitment cycle?
Signe: As a fast-growing company, you should have a people-in-culture champion on the board. For example, someone like me who talks that language and takes care of the organization. With those perspectives, you could also consult someone.
I think the issue starts somewhere else. It starts with people and cultural perspectives, which is really the glue. So, make sure that we have the right people with the right crafts at the right time. They are often coming in too late. So, the role becomes that we need to tidy up before we can actually move forward.
So I would say to any kind of startup, get someone with these competencies in at the very early stage, and make sure you have someone to advise you, specifically about what you need to be mindful of and take action on when you build your company.
DE&I as Part of the Next Wave of Trends Surrounding HR Tech
Lydia: Let's discuss a little bit more about trends around HR technology. There have been plenty of surveys out there. And this one particular survey from PwC has stood out by saying that more than half of the companies they've surveyed use HR tech naturally to find, attract, and retain top talent.
So, what would be the three main HR technology trends for next year or even in the foreseeable future?
Signe: I think that any kind of HR tech trends now and in the future would have a very clear DE&I agenda. So, we need to infuse DE&I or Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion into our organizational processes.
So, you only look at the craft and the way that they describe themselves. It needs to be very data-driven because we all have biases. That's very important.
And no matter how well we're trained, it will avail in our decisions, and people tend to choose something that they recognize. Our brains register something new and unknown as dangerous. So, to have the HR tech trends help us in terms of data drive. However, I think anything within the DE&I space, combined with data-driven functionalities, is big, and it's going to be very much bigger.
Lydia: So, how should recruiters and HR leaders prepare to embrace these trends?
Signe: This is where it gets very personal. Because one thing is to use a tool, but if you haven't taken the training yourself, someone is going to find out, and it's going to sound hollow. So, it’s important that everyone, not only people in culture leaders and TA, but everyone in the company, takes some level of AI training.
This is really about establishing awareness about what DE&I is and what your own personal biases are that might actually make you speak, act, and make decisions in a way that is not inclusive, without you even knowing it, without you even having that intent.
So, education, awareness, and personality need to be up personal and close. And in that way, you also give back to the employees who were actually taking part in that. Because it will be learnings that anyone can take with them wherever they go, that's one thing.
As a company, as a leader, and as a board, put your money where your mouth is. A lot of people are talking about DE&I, inclusiveness, and anti-racial when there's pride month around the world. We'll see the flags and everything, and my question is always, “Are they putting the money where their mouth is?”
A lot of companies are not, and it's positioning them as an employer even worse. And then the last thing is, as an organization that is also a person, and definitely as leaders, be prepared to be uncomfortable to develop.
“Everyone wants to develop and grow. These two things, at their core, are to step into an unknown territory and to put yourself out there to fail and succeed by learning. And that is uncomfortable. A lot of people are not willing to be uncomfortable growing, but everyone wants to grow.”
Lydia: In terms of technology, it can get very hectic for HR professionals when they’re doing mass recruitment. So, what kind of technology would HR leaders and recruiters need in order to execute a successful recruitment strategy?
Signe: I need to backtrack a little bit on that question. Because there are a lot of apps and platforms, SaaS platforms, and they're all brilliant. But what I see when it’s not successful is because the recruitment strategies are not linked to the product strategy. So, you need to know what the product strategy is, how you build the organization around that, and understand that these things need to be linked.
And then, as you are executing the recruitment strategy, you need to analyze the execution of the strategy, both in terms of what was before the strategy, what's worked during and after the progress to understand the impact of the strategy and the impact should always be measured in the organization in terms of outcome, performance, product market fit. Then you need to understand what to keep in terms of strategy and what to stop doing that wasn't working.
And again, it goes back to understanding the criteria before bringing any kind of platform or tech on board and always ensuring that there is an alignment. That's very important.
Establishing DE&I
Lydia: Speaking of DE&I, what are some actionable steps that leaders and hiring managers can take to ensure diversity and inclusion at play in the workplace?
Signe: It's about understanding how to speak to minority groups. And minority groups can even be gender, race, or educational background. That goes with understanding your people.
One thing that we often see is that when we have growth talks, when we have narrative appraisals, and we have promotions, they're sometimes a very significant talk about how it's biassed and how it's linked to the people that know the managers and the ones promoting the best. Make sure that your growth talks are as data-based as possible.
As I mentioned before, we will choose people to promote whom we see ourselves the most in, which is very often not the best for the company, the product, or the market. On the other hand, diverse perspectives are really enriching and can create a very, very unique product.
So, it's very important to be able to hold a variety of backgrounds and talents to make sure that there are inclusive perspectives. And that calls to the maturity level of the leader as a person because it's a big job to hold various perspectives in a company.
Lydia: And from culture, it often moves into the realm of an employer brand, then that's how you build your employer brand. That's what you project about the company that anyone would want to join. So, what, in your opinion, might be the role of employer branding to attract and keeping diverse candidates?
Signe: It's about knowing your audience. And I think, again, it also links to the product strategy, the company strategy, and the market strategy. It's okay to say, “The range of people that we can hire is this. This is the range of people we want, because of our strategy. We believe that it will be most successful with this range of people.”
Be honest about it. Communicate it out. Be very transparent about what you’re looking for. If it gives you 70% of what you want, but you want to reach 100. Then you need to say, “Okay, 30% of that strategy actually didn't give us what we want. What is it that we need to change?”
So, know your audience. Not everyone needs to be an audience. Be very clear on that. And also, remember that the more narrow you make your window, the fewer different perspectives you'll have.
Signe’s Advice & How to Connect with Her
Lydia: You have a vast experience in the talent space, not just in recruitment but also in the whole view of watching organizational changes take place right in front of you. So, what advice would you give someone who's starting out in this space, maybe in recruitment, talent acquisition, and even in organizational culture?
Signe: As a young TA, I would say that TA is many things. You can go in many directions. It's a great place to start your career in people and culture. What I would look for if I were to start all over is to identify and find people or a team that you're keen to learn from and work very closely with.
Find people whom you can see yourself getting candid, radical, clear feedback from, without being upset, without feeling that you're not good enough, someone whom you really respect, and again, that you have value aligned with.
And then make your own expectations clear. You can also be very experienced and new in the TA space. Even though you're young or just coming out into the TA space, make your own expectations clear because then it's much easier for you and your team members and your employer to adjust down the line and say, “My expectation is that I will be working on these kinds of projects and tasks.” And then you can discuss that.
It's much easier to change directions, and changes do happen. And it's much easier to feel successful if you are courageous enough to also communicate your expectations.
Lydia: Signe, thank you so much for your insights, your time, and the valuable advice that you've just given to young people starting out. It is indeed a very important space.
Lots of things are converging right now. And it's a very important time as well. So, I'm sure the audience who's watching us and also listening in would like to find out where they can connect with you.
Signe: I'm very active on LinkedIn, and I answer any kind of messaging or requests back. I'm happy to provide assistance and support as well as receive any feedback or enriching conversations back my way.
Lydia: And we have been in conversation with Signe Linneboe, Head of People and Organisation at Lift Relations in Denmark. If you like our content, please subscribe to our channels. Stay tuned for more episodes every week from All-In Recruitment. Thank you.
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