All-In Recruitment is a podcast by Manatal focusing on all things related to the recruitment industry’s missions and trends. Join us in our weekly conversations with leaders in the recruitment space and learn their best practices to transform the way you hire.
Transcript
The transcript has been edited for clarity.
What sparked his move from business development to recruitment
Lydia: Welcome to the All-In Recruitment podcast by Manatal, where we explore best practices, learnings, and trends with leaders in the recruitment space.
If you like our content, please subscribe to our channels on YouTube and Spotify and stay tuned for weekly episodes. My name is Lydia, and joining us today is Michael Starkie, who is the Recruitment and People Director at The Goat Agency based in the UK.
Hi, Michael. Thank you for joining us on this podcast.
Michael: Thank you so much for having me. Great to meet you.
Lydia: How are you, Michael?
Michael: Great. Super busy. We've got charity fundraisers on the horizon and Christmas parties to plan talent to acquire. So, it's quite busy.
Lydia: You've recently transitioned to a role in recruitment after having worked in multiple roles outside the recruitment sector. You've been in business development, particularly. So, what sparked your move to recruitment?
Michael: I joined the NGO agency as a business developer. Prior to that, I worked in business development and marketing in London. The reason I wanted to make a move to the company initially was because of Goat’s ambition. I was bought into the ability that they had to convince me that scaling globally was kind of their north star at the time.
And when I joined, I was obviously working with clients. But in three months, the opportunity arose for me to become the recruitment manager and help them tell the story of what Goat was trying to achieve.
So, off the back of me buying into what they were trying to do, I was able to reverberate that out through my new role. I loved it. I think that there are a lot of similarities between business development and recruitment. You have to be proactive in sourcing the best person for the job, but also really listening to people.
I'm a big believer in interviews becoming a conversation that's really curious. And I was able to transfer a lot of the skills that I'd accumulated in previous positions to what I do now.
Lydia: What is the main transferable skill from a business developer that helped you in your role in recruitment?
Michael: I think you have to listen to people and understand their position empathetically. And I think that good salespeople are really good listeners. They try to solve a problem based on the solution that they have. And the transferable skill, there really is listening to candidates and assessing whether this company is right for them, but also that they have a skill set that’s going to be valuable to the company moving forward.
But it isn't as simple as that. You need to understand what people's ceilings are and whether they're going to be a good fit for your company culture. So, I think increased levels of empathy and emotional intelligence, and the ability to really listen and understand someone's position helps you be a good recruiter, and then all the proactivity that comes with BD could be transferred over as well.
Milestones in the past four years
Lydia: You mentioned earlier that you were the recruitment manager with The Goat Agency in the early phase of your time there. And you are now the Director of Recruitment and People for The Goat Agency, which is a niche agency in influencer marketing, correct?
Michael: Yeah, we're an influencer marketing agency.
Lydia: So, tell us about your role here and some milestones that you've achieved in the last four years.
Michael: When I joined, there were around 40-45 Goats. The week before I joined, they moved into a bigger office, which was, again, a sign of things to come. And I guess as my role evolved, we started to bring in people who had different skill sets. So, I was constantly learning on the job in an industry that really wasn't that old.
“Influencer marketing didn't really exist all that long ago. So, everything is incredibly fresh. There is no blueprint for what the business is trying to achieve. So, we were big believers in bringing in problem solvers.”
I guess trying to navigate that was incredibly interesting to me because I was learning something new, if not multiple new things every single day. We also didn't have a people function at the time.
So, I was literally just a recruitment manager. As the business is scaling, we're obviously bringing in people with fresh perspectives and diverse backgrounds in roles that didn't exist that long, as I touched on. But also, we felt the need to really dial into retaining that talent as well.
This is kind of where the people side of my role came in. I began to focus on culture, more benefits, long-term retention strategy, and making people feel warm and welcome as part of the company culture. We kind of moved from that village stage into a town. So, my role evolved from not just simply trying to get people through the door who were really, really good but also keeping them long-term.
Lydia: That's a great transition that you've made, looking through the whole process and the entire experience with a bird's eye view, basically.
Michael: Exactly. And I think it's always been incredibly important to me to extend the relationship beyond the first day, providing an excellent, memorable candidate experience through the recruitment process. But what is incredibly important beyond that is maintaining that relationship and ensuring that that individual or individuals know that you're their port of call when they need a friendly word of advice.
You've sold them into the company culture, and therefore, you need to embody what that company culture is. I think that we didn't really put a name on that for a long time. But then, all of a sudden, “People” started being floated about as a title. And we're able to put all of those responsibilities under that umbrella.
What employer branding looks like for an influencer agency
Lydia: And it seems that The Goat Agency receives an average of 500 applications a week. Is that right?
Michael: It depends on how many roles we have left. But influencer marketing and social media is obviously very attractive place for people to be at the moment. Big brands that we work with are now investing heavily in that as a way to market to their consumers.
We work with big commercial Fortune 500 businesses. And the amount of investment they've now made on that tool has increased dramatically throughout the years, which is obviously part of the parcel of us being able to grow so quickly, globally.
So, when you pepper in the fact that we are trailblazing this industry, we are kind of number one, especially in the UK and Europe. People want to work for you. And also, when you create a really great recruitment brand, because of the experience, you're able to provide candidates as well. I think that builds momentum behind people seeing us as a really desirable place to be.
“We also invested in an idea that became the main marketing channel for us. We ended up vlogging for 400 days straight. It was a window into our company culture, the type of work that we do, the energy that we give off pretty much on a daily basis.”
So, I could always refer candidates to that as a resource for them to get clued up about what and who the agency is. They didn't have to just talk through a website. They had content to watch. And I think that it definitely spiked the number of applications that we were receiving because it was a short, snappy form. And who wouldn't want to be a part of that?
Lydia: Influencer marketing agency. So, I guess the pressure was on for employer branding to be over and beyond what you would normally see.
Michael: You have to practice what you preach. You have to provide organic and authentic content.
Strategies to recruit the right talent for advertising today
Lydia: Absolutely. So, what might be some other strategies to recruit the right talent for a sector like advertising today?
Michael: We use LinkedIn a lot. It’s a social media platform blended with an opportunity for you to position yourself as the right person for a job. The vlog was also a huge attraction tool for us.
And then I think it's being proactive and building your network. I have met so many people who weren't quite right for one position but were perfect for one that we opened up two or three weeks later.
So, just keeping people in mind because you've listened to them, maintaining that relationship, even if they weren't right in that moment, is incredibly key. I instill that in my team, who are super talented and great network builders in their own right.
Using the right tools and being proactive - not everyone can rely on applications all the time. You might have to go and headhunt or source, having a network there that you can defer back to if you need to or feel like it adds value.
And then, using fun content to really demonstrate what you're about is all that you really need. And providing a good candidate experience obviously makes people interested in maintaining a relationship with you.
Lydia: So, in your experience so far, what do creative talent seek from employers?
Michael: Well, we are big believers in championing individualism. And I think that creativity in its own right is someone's ability to demonstrate who they are. We have a biannual appraisal system. Every six months, you can be considered for a promotion or a pay rise based on how well your creativity has performed, whether that be through your ability to build a relationship with a client, develop a groundbreaking strategy, or create an impactful piece of design. All of those kinds of tangible abilities to be creative.
But I guess never being too far away from the movement in your career in a positive way is incredibly important. I think buying into the fact that we are in a unique position to trailblaze, an industry that didn't exist that long ago, is something that people really enjoy because you can have a big-picture impact day to day.
Whereas if you fall into a much larger company, you might get lost in how big it is. Benefits are obviously a big one. I think that's undeniable. Mental health support, health and wellness support, and increased pension contributions. There's a whole list of things that we offer - increase paid time off based on how long you've been here - and I know that they're very well received.
I think people want to feel valued in the work that they do. I think that they want to be treated like an individual, not just a number. And I think that with time, they want to feel looked after by the company through the length of service.
Lydia: Today, we're looking at wellness, looking at growth, some kind of career trajectory, and recognition for what they bring to the table in an organization. And I particularly like that for a creative agency. There's always space to express themselves in a creative way that brings individualism out there.
Michael: As an employer, we're really proud of not pretending we're perfect. I think that anyone can come into our business regardless of seniority - from intern to co-founder and everyone in between. All ideas are welcome.
So you can kind of be your own entrepreneur within our business, and if you improve a process or make a suggestion or a tweak that improves who we are or what we do, then you will be merited for that. And you can build up your profile and the business really well by making those kinds of innovations through the work that you produce.
“Having a diverse pool of minds that can all contribute a different way of thinking, in a professional sense, can really skyrocket your business. So, when that person feels like their ideas warranted movement, when it comes to salary or promotion, then you've got a recipe for creating superstars.”
And I think that should always be our aim. People who want to be here do a great job and enjoy their time with their colleagues. Something, again, we're proud of that 185 of us who enjoy spending time with each other on a day-to-day basis. And long may that continue. And it's all different people from different walks of life as well.
Going remote-first
Lydia: And what about work arrangements? Do you see any changes in those trends?
Michael: We are a remote-first business. We do have an office in London that people can use, which is permanent. So, pre-pandemic, we are very office-orientated. When COVID started bubbling up, we obviously had to think about remote work. And for the first time, people took to it very, very well. I think if there is a business model that suits remote working, it's probably going to be a digital or social media-type agency.
People started to really get their heads around the benefits of saving a couple of hours by not having to commute etc. But I think there was always this underlying thing with us that people quite genuinely missed each other at the same time.
So, we sent out a survey. There was an obvious appetite for it, a space that people could book and use if they wanted to. But we'd already made up our minds at that point. We're never going to mandate anyone to go into an office for any set days a week or month. So, I have now moved out of London. I don't live there anymore.
“We recruited people from all over the UK, all over Europe, all over the States, all over APAC. That increased the ability to be diverse in our hiring strategy, as well, because we weren't really restricted by whether you could get to London, or whether you could commute to New York, or whether you could get yourself around Singapore.”
We're not going to change that kind of flexible way of working anytime soon. It may look different in the future in America and in APAC, and we might even move up another office elsewhere. But for now, remote-first is our policy. And we have to ensure that the candidate is comfortable with that as well. A lot of people are eager to go in from Monday to Friday. But that's not what we offer right now.
Lydia: As you said, you're no longer restricted by geography, you are no longer restricted by certain regions, and there's no rigidity in that sense. And this brings me to my next question, which is on productivity tools for recruiters, making things easier, remote recruitment, dealing with teammates who are not within your vicinity, and communicating seamlessly.
Today, we have so many productivity tools for recruitment. There are plenty that focuses on automating the processes and curating the most relevant information so that you make the best decision. But recruitment is still challenging for a lot of people. Why do you think that is?
Michael: I think sometimes companies will use agencies who don't necessarily have their best interests at heart. I think sometimes they use agencies that very much do care about their company. But I would recommend getting an internal recruitment function if you can because that person works for you full-time and really understands your DNA, as well as has your best interests at heart.
I think some companies probably don't market themselves in the right way. And they don't put much investment into promoting themselves. So how on earth is a candidate going to really know exactly what you're about?
If your website is not good, you might have an idea and fantastic service or product, but if you've not invested in your outward comps, then you're obviously going to find recruitment hard because all of your competitors might be making that investment.
We're in a very candidate-driven market at the moment as well. So, anything that you can do to stand out to attract someone is going to help you get the person that you need to do the job for you at that time.
“We're in an economic pinch as well, globally. So, people are becoming more risk averse. I think if you've got tools to help you with your recruitment pipelines, and you are able to refer back to your network on your screen rather than think about them ad hoc, then that can help you with your recruitment process as well.”
Organizational tools definitely help. I don't think there's a one size fits all with that, though. I think it is entirely down to the size of the business, what they're trying to achieve, how much recruitment they do, and etc.
What should someone starting out in recruitment today understand about their role?
Lydia: You have experience moving into the recruitment space from other roles. What advice would you give someone who's starting out in recruitment today?
Michael: I would say, enjoy people's company for what it is. It's a very unique moment in time. Interviewing people, you've got like a 20-40 hour long timeframe to get to know that individual. Approach the conversation with curiosity and then genuine enthusiasm to unpack that person's capabilities because they might be nervous.
You've got to impact their answers. It isn't always as straightforward as trying to do a Q&A. But yeah, I think you need that proactivity. You need to enjoy the company of other human beings, that's really important. You need to have the ability to tell a compelling story, to help the candidate understand how they might fit in, in the big picture.
People want to know what vision you have for them. And really get to grips with how your company, or if you work for an agency, how the companies you work with position themselves in the market and invest time and get to know them.
Because talent acquisition, people, and scaling a company in the right way through the right individuals are the important premise of why businesses do well. I genuinely believe that people, a company is just a group of people that are collectively all moving in the same direction. And if you can get all the people that you need going in the same direction but with real vigor, then you've got a real recipe for success as a business.
Lydia: Being comfortable with people, being curious, and constantly asking the right questions. And I think it's also important, as you've said, to have a vision for them because it's not so much a sale or it's not so much a proposition as it is to understand the person in front of you, who has aspirations and has plans of their own.
Michael: Exactly right. You are two entities, and you need to work out if you're going to align so that you can move forward together in the same way.
Lydia: Thank you very much for your time today, Michael. It's a pleasure having you on the show.
And we have been in conversation with Michael Starkie, Recruitment and People Director at The Goat Agency in the UK. Do look out for future podcasts from All-In Recruitment, and stay tuned for our next videos.
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