All-In Recruitment is a podcast by Manatal focusing on all things related to the recruitment industry’s missions and trends. Join us in our weekly conversations with leaders in the recruitment space and learn their best practices to transform the way you hire.
This transcript has been edited for clarity.
Lydia: Welcome to the All In Recruitment podcast by Manatal, where we explore best practices, learnings, and trends with leaders in the recruitment space. If you've liked our content so far, please subscribe to our channels on YouTube and Spotify to stay tuned for our weekly episodes.
I'm your host, Lydia, and with us this week is Dr.Khalifa Oliver, Executive Advisor, Experience Coach, Author, and currently the Global Director of Employee Experience Analytics at Ford. It is great to have you with us, Khalifa.
Kalifa: Thank you so much for having me here today.
Why Employee Experience Matters in a Tech-Driven World
Lydia: So, tell us how you came to specialize in employee experience, Khalifa. I mean, why is this particularly important in the business environment today?
Kalifa: So my background is industrial organizational psychology, which is that balance between data analytics, advanced modeling, and then looking at the micro elements of work. And so before there was a name, which would be employee experience, what I would look at is these elements that we know of, the familiar elements: engagement, satisfaction, commitment, stress, those kinds of things. And that’s what I focused my work on.
As I continued in this space, I saw a need to look at it holistically, and one of the places that I saw it was on the customer side. I looked at customer analytics, I looked at customer experience work, and I could see where there were innovations there. There was better use of data there, there was better modeling there. And it was all about creating these personalized experiences and better understanding customers.
And I realized that that same philosophy and those same processes and techniques could be used on the employee side, ’cause you’re still dealing with people and humans. And really, build it within the context of work. What does that mean for work, and how does that align with business goals? And so that became my passion, my mission.
I went and did, studied to be certified in people analytics and really dug deep into how do you make change? Because it was never for me, how can I just maintain work? It was, how do I create experiences for people at work? Because experiences are what lead to innovation, experiences are what lead to non-toxic environments, experiences are what make people feel set up for success and are able to meet business goals. And so, for me, that became the thing that was really important.
To the part of your question where you ask, “Why is this important in the current business environment?” It is because the current business environment is—there’s an emphasis on technology. A lot of emphasis on technology, and we know the impact technology can have, but taken without the context of people, it makes no sense. And so, in order for the maximization or optimization of how we apply technology, we need the creative elements and the innovative elements of people. So how do we get the best out of them in order to get the best out of the products and services that we provide to the candidate?
Lydia: Khalifa, just looking back at your observation, where the customer experience can be applied to the employee experience, are there specific elements or are there certain fundamental factors that cannot change or factors that you need to think about that run parallel between the two?
Kalifa: One is the idea of personalization. In customer experience, every customer is viewed as an individual. Despite the fact that you're measuring them in aggregate. One of the examples I also use is if a friend and I are sitting next to each other at that same moment, and we're both scrolling, searching for two different things. I'm searching for an orange dress, she's searching for a purple dress. Our feed suddenly gets filled with advertisements. I'm getting a bunch of orange dresses. She's getting those for purple dresses. What that means is there's an element in this algorithm that recognizes these two are customers. But these two are individuals.
When we look at employees, we tend to look at employees as this monolith. If I make a decision, if I do a process, it's for this one thing, this one group. And that’s not how humans are. We recognize in our own businesses that’s not how humans are. That’s not how people are. You can’t make blanket procedures and policies. You could make broad-based guides that people can follow, but when you're really trying to execute on experience, you have to recognize the individual, which I think is something that we need to learn a lot more from that side.
Now, the biggest thing that I tell people when looking at the customer experience with the employee experience is that the work situation and the experience as a customer are different. One is a strong situation, and the other is a weak situation. Work situations are strong.
I can’t just say I hate my job and leave; there’s too much that rides on my ability to be employed, and depending on where you are, it’s stronger. If you’re in the US, in many cases your healthcare depends on you having a job.
Whereas if I’m a customer, it’s a weaker situation. I walk into store A, I don’t think I’m being treated well there. I put my stuff back on the shelf and walk across the street to store B. I have more options to move around more freely as a customer. Whereas an employee, if my experience is bad, I have to create situations to cope with that experience until I can probably leave that experience if there are viable options, if my skills can transfer, because I could pick up and walk across the street and say, I’m going to work over there, they’ll probably call the police for that. It’s just balancing and creating context; you can learn from them, but recognize any differences in context and stakes for somebody.
From Transactional HR to Transformative Experiences
Lydia: And in your experience, kind of unique challenges might come when you're trying to modernize the employee experience in a traditional, large company?
Kalifa: Mindset. Mindset is one of the biggest things. Traditionally, employees are viewed just on the wrong side of the balance sheet. You're an expense. You're a cost center. You don't bring in income from any company. What is the point of investing? Traditionally the employee experience feels nice to have. The main thing needed to have is called the transactional approach to HR. I pay your salary. I, if I need transaction between the organization and the person. Having an experience just seems like a luxury company, and that's just a traditional approach.
Bear in mind that traditionally, work has been centered on the manufacturing approach where we're all on an assembly line and we work a certain number of hours. I'm exchanging these hours for what I produce. And that has been taken into the office. While technology has changed and the experiences have changed as to what work looks like, we have not shifted that mindset.
The mindset is very hard for a lot of people to understand. You're actually paying for skill, not hours. This is one of the reasons for the debate about remote work because conceptually, it's the idea that you're paying me for my skill, and if my skill traditionally would take the average person four hours, it takes me an hour. Four hours of work to scale. And it’s reframing how people see employees and that is a big challenge in large companies.
The other big challenge in large companies is the way to get people more data savvy. And more data-driven and trusts data a lot more, it's tough because we have a lot of systems that just don't talk to each other, and the data is not getting through the systems. And one of the biggest problems is that add data, see all these companies add an AI, add data, add a process, add a model, but have not created organizational readiness for these technologies to be used to be more efficient in your organization.
Lydia: Now, going back to recruiters, how can they be seen as architects of employee experience, being the very first point of candidate interaction? What might their role be there?
Kalifa: I sometimes call recruiters the doulas. You're the first person someone interacts with; you are their introduction to the experience. If I go into a store, stepping in as a customer, and my first encounter with the initial person is pleasant, the rest of my experience feels better. This is because I'm not constantly anticipating the next argument, rudeness, or feeling alone without anyone to ask a question on the sales floor. That's the role of the recruiter. You want their first experience to make them think, "If this is how it begins, what would the rest of my experience be like if I worked here?" I tell people I had one of the world's best recruiters at one of my jobs. It was the worst company ever, the worst job I've ever had in my life, and yet she was my
Lydia: Best recruiter
Kalifa: She's the best recruiter, and I love her to this day. Half the reason I went in was that my experience with her was so good that I thought it couldn't be that bad. They have that job. They're the smile you see when you walk in, the person you trust. If you're on a tour or hike, that's the someone who will hold your hand and help you. That's the role of the recruiter, and it's an important one. It's a hard role, but I think it's extremely significant.
Crafting First Impressions That Stick
Lydia: Now, returning to creating that initial employee experience and making it compelling enough, similar to the one you had, do you remember that experience more than your time in that job? One of the most common missed opportunities in crafting a compelling initial employee experience lies in the details, I would imagine.
Kalifa: Yes, it’s about humanizing the experience from the moment a person enters your system as a candidate. That’s often a missed opportunity. It frequently feels inhumane or impersonal at the point of entry. It feels generic, and you enter the company feeling like a number. That’s usually the toughest part. You have the chance to make that person feel human. The job application process is not for the faint of heart, especially now in such a tough economy. As a recruiter, you have the ability to soften the landing and even soften the rejection if it comes.
I think a missed opportunity is usually that humanization of the process. Going back to the best recruiter I’ve ever had, I remember she would sometimes call me, and before we even discussed the job, we’d chitchat. She’d check on me—how are you doing? It didn’t take long, just a few extra minutes of her checking in: How are you? How’s everything going? It didn’t feel like it was all about convincing me to join the company or a perpetual sales pitch. It felt like, “I like you, this is why I’ve contacted you, and I believe in you. How can I help you? Oh, and by the way, how are your kids?” I think that’s often a missed opportunity for many recruiters. It doesn’t take much to humanize it. I get that they’re busy, but humanizing the process and really paying attention to the stages where it’s almost the final decision becomes more critical as the stakes rise for the candidate
Lydia: Given the increased use of technology by recruiters—automating processes and using communication or language within that process to filter out candidates more easily in the initial stages—you could say that many candidates face email communication rather than in-person interaction with a recruiter. How do you balance that?
Kalifa: Exactly. If you go on LinkedIn, you might see 200 applications for what would be an entry-level job. It’s unrealistic in many ways to expect a recruiter to email every single person at that stage. I think what recruiters can do is improve that generic email. There are small things you can adjust. I shouldn’t get a rejection almost the moment I hit send. It took me 20 minutes to fill out your application, and I got a rejection immediately—that’s demeaning and demoralizing. There are ways to set up your technology so it doesn’t feel like a complete rejection of me as an entire human. We can do much better in how we configure technology to work for us.
As you move further through the process, it needs to become more personalized. At that point, you told me I was a good candidate, and the hiring manager thinks so too. This is the best you’re going to treat me—this is you courting me, like going out on a couple of dates.
You’ll have to treat me better than that at this stage. Let technology assist you rather than just letting it drive everything. I think we often set it and forget it, but in doing so, we also forget the candidate’s experience during a very difficult period. For most people looking for a job, it’s an exhausting time.
Empowering Talent Acquisition for Success
Lydia: Given your background in talent enablement, Khalifa, how can organizations better identify and assess critical talent for future roles within the organization, looking toward where the business is headed? How can they improve at identifying and assessing those critical skills internally?
Kalifa: A big part of it is people analytics—constantly understanding the jobs that are needed. With more workforce planning, you need to know what skills are required, what skills are already present, and what gaps you’re trying to fill so you know what you’re actually looking for. A key step is writing better job descriptions. Start challenging hiring managers to create clearer and more precise job descriptions. That way, even if you get 200 applicants in an hour, you’re closer to knowing exactly what you need.
The other aspect is tougher, especially for talent acquisition leaders. They need a stronger voice in selecting HR technology and shaping the processes they want. They should be part of identifying what that technology is. Too often, the people choosing the technology aren’t the ones using it, and you end up with systems that don’t optimize the candidate experience. Then, talent acquisition professionals—who had no say in it—get blamed. Sometimes, IT makes the decision alone for talent acquisition. To optimize this, talent acquisition leaders must get involved in the technology decision-making process. This also helps them understand the skills needed on their own teams.
We don’t always assess our talent acquisition teams well enough. What skills do I need on my team to identify what I’m looking for? What are the actual gaps I’m trying to address? This informs the decision to move someone to the next stage or recommend them—not just because we had a good conversation. It’s about balancing these elements and skilling up on HR tech, which will be crucial.
Lydia: That yields the data used for decision-making and allows for updates. So, you have a strong foundation of what you currently possess and what you would like to have in the future.
Kalifa: Exactly, and how it evolves.
Making Data Relatable, Not Intimidating
Lydia: On that note, what advice would you give recruitment professionals looking to become more strategic and data-driven in their approach, Khalifa?
Kalifa: I'd say this is a common problem, so I don't want talent acquisition people to feel discouraged. I think it starts with understanding the basics of data. In many cases, we can see numerous data reports and begin asking questions about them. Data itself is a truth-teller, but those who compile data can misrepresent it. Data can be easily distorted if you don't learn to question what you're examining and seeking. Understanding basic concepts is key. For example, a metric many talent acquisition professionals focus on is time to fill. Not my favorite metric. Why? Because I can manipulate it. If I absolutely needed to, I could skew that metric. I'm not saying it's a bad metric; I'm saying it can be easily abused. So, try to understand what it means. If my time to fill is short, does it mean I'm finding high-quality candidates, or does it mean I'm closing roles faster than I should and missing out on skilled talent because I'm trying to meet a metric rather than find the best talent?
It’s about evolving your understanding of what it means when you're asked to do something specific. It involves exposing yourself to key metrics and their true implications. Beyond that, look at alternative metrics other organizations or business units use and consider how they might apply to your work. That makes data more democratized and conversational. Data needs to feel relatable because it’s often intimidating. Nobody needs to become a data scientist overnight—there’s a reason people take extensive courses and earn degrees in that field. You don’t need to be a coder; you just need to be an avid consumer of data and question it as much as possible in conversation. That helps facilitate those discussions
Lydia: Well, thank you so much for your time and insights, Dr. Kalifa. It’s been great to hear from you. For whoever’s listening and might want to continue the conversation or has heard something they’d like to discuss further, where can they connect with you?
Kalifa: The most popular place to find me is on LinkedIn. Look for Kalifa Oliver. You can also find my coaching and experience consultant site at kalifaoliver.com. On social media, I’m on all the platforms except X.
Lydia: Great. It’s been a real pleasure, Dr. Kalifa. Hearing insights from a practitioner who’s viewed things from a consumer perspective is definitely valuable for those listening, especially those who want to shift their strategies or perspective on talent acquisition and how to address the employee experience in this context.
Thank you again for your time and insights; it’s been a real pleasure talking to you. We’ve been in conversation with Dr. Kalifa Oliver, executive advisor, experience coach, author, and currently the Global Director of Employee Experience Analytics at Ford.
Thank you for joining us. Remember to subscribe and stay tuned for more weekly episodes from All In Recruitment.
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