All-In Recruitment is a podcast by Manatal focusing on all things related to the recruitment industry’s missions and trends. Join us in our weekly conversations with leaders in the recruitment space and learn their best practices to transform the way you hire.
This transcript has been edited for clarity.
Lydia: Welcome to the All In Recruitment podcast by Manatal, where we explore best practices, learnings, and trends with leaders in the recruitment space. If you like our content, please subscribe to our YouTube and Spotify channels to stay tuned for our weekly episodes.
I'm your host, Lydia, and with us this evening is Rohit Joshi from Sanofi. A pleasure to have you with us, Rohit.
Rohit: It’s lovely to be here, Lydia. Thanks for the opportunity.
Employee Experience is a Key Differentiator
Lydia: So, tell us about your journey in the talent space, Rohit. I mean, what are some pivotal shifts in this industry that have really shaped your experience so far?
Rohit: Let me start a bit with my journey, and then I can talk about the shifts, as I've seen them, happening over the years. So, I've been in this space, out and out, Indian by birth, but I've moved around the world thanks to the jobs that I've had. I've always been in the talent space. It's something I enjoy doing. Currently, I'm the global head of talent acquisition for Sanofi, which is a pharmaceutical organization. Previously, I have worked at Coca-Cola, Philips, and Infosys, so I’ve worked across multiple industries.
A few shifts that I have seen: One is that employee experience is a key differentiator. Today, candidates are looking at the package deal. What's the work-life balance you're going to offer me? What are the growth opportunities you're going to offer me? Are you going to take care of my mental well-being? Organizations that sort of get this right are the ones that tend to do better. Compromises are something people do not really go with anymore. They're looking for the entire package.
A second one would be skill-based hiring. I remember when I started out, a lot had to do with the college you went to and the qualifications you had. I'm not saying that those are not important, but what is more important is the relevant experience you have right now. So, if you look at it at a macro level, that's a big shift in the way we now bring people on board in organizations.
Another one that comes to mind is just the use of technology and this is very pervasive now. But if you think of a talent process, especially talent acquisition, you have technology solutions, and many of us experience that as candidates. Right from how you find a job to how you get screened to how you interview, you can go through an entire process without even talking to a person.
The next one is the way the world has moved when it comes to remote working, with borders becoming a bit more fluid. That has increased talent pools. There are global talent pools now. So, if earlier you were restricted to one area or one location, that is a thing of the past. Now, of course, that doesn't make it easier, but it really enhances your talent pool. Companies, again, that get this right have an advantage here, which is a good segue into the whole flexible way of working.
Flexibility can come in many parts. It could be the kind of work that you do. Do I want to be a full-time person? Do I want to be a contingent worker? Flexibility can come in location. It can also come in terms of roles. There are organizations where you have co-CEOs and that was never something people considered in the past.
The last two shifts, I would say, are significant. First is the way in which people and, of course, companies look at DEI. At the end of the day, companies are a reflection of the society we live in. So, when DEI topics, rightfully, are important, organizations also have to keep step with the way the world is moving. Companies that are ahead in this space tend to be well regarded, especially by Gen Z, which tends to have a stronger voice in this.
The final one is upskilling and reskilling. We all hear about labor shortages in the world. Companies that tend to do well are the ones that get the most out of the people they already have. So, internal hiring is a huge trend that has emerged in the last few years compared to just going out and trying to find the next best person for your organization.
Balancing Global Consistency and Local Adaptability
Lydia: Now, going back to your point on skills-based hiring, it's not so much a versus, but strongly complimenting traditional-based or education-based hiring. Now, when you look at a global talent pool, what mechanisms do you think need to be put in place so that you've got the skill, however, there are so many other factors to consider as well.
So in terms of getting that kind of person into the workforce, what sort of mechanism do you think needs to be put in place?
Rohit: So, this is a multifaceted question. Let me take it in two parts. One is that when you're looking at a global organization, you have to think strategically about how you're going to achieve global consistency while also not losing local adaptability. So, a classic "glocal" approach.
Now, when it comes to specialized roles, in terms of what we are doing, there has to be clarity about what you are going after. In many global organizations, it may sound basic, but everyone needs to be on the same page. If these are the critical skills for the organization, are we aligned? Because at the end of the day, you only have 24 hours and $100, and it all comes down to resource allocation. So, we need to be clear about where we are allocating our talent resources. Understand the roles that you want to go after—that's point one.
Second, understand the value proposition your organization offers to people with those skill sets. Because if you're going after them, you're definitely not going to be the only one. There will be multiple organizations targeting the same set of people. So, what is your value proposition? Why should someone consider working with you?
Third, whenever you go after skill sets that are highly sought after, just imagine the number of outreaches those individuals receive. There was a stat that said a typical software developer gets three LinkedIn recruiter invites a day. So, how are you going to stand out? You have to play the long game.
A good analogy is that a talented, in-demand candidate is like a wealthy person at a store. He or she can pretty much buy whatever they want. You have to think about yourself like that. What makes your brand stand out?
It's the same with an organization. People need to know what your company stands for. They will likely have read up about it. Hopefully, you’ve set up a team that has reached out to them. So, engage in passive sourcing and have an engagement model in place. That way, when the opportunity comes, and someone says, “Okay, now I'm thinking about moving,” they'll think, “I've spoken to this organization. They seem to say the right things. I’ve had a good interaction with this person. Let me go ahead and do it.”
Lydia: When it comes to managing a global company with more than 90,000 employees, such as in the case of Sanofi, what other unique challenges come with managing the entire function?
Rohit: I'll go back to the first one. The biggest one is global versus local because there are some things where you need to make certain technology decisions that have economies of scale. If you want to have an ATS, a candidate relationship tool, or an interview scheduling tool, things like this tend to be global in nature. Otherwise, you end up with multiple tech stacks, which are difficult to manage. So you have to decide, as an organization, where you are going to be globally and where you are going to be locally. That's point one.
The second thing is that multiple countries mean multiple laws, and you have to be compliant. So how are you going to navigate the whole compliance ecosystem? Staying compliant means always being updated with what is happening.
Now, we talked about remote working and people moving around. While that's easy to do, it also creates challenges when it comes to data. Where do you store your data? Does data move across borders? That ties back into compliance. So you really have to think about that as well when you are setting up systems.
The next point I referred to earlier, and it's important, is localized employer branding. Yes, you might be working for an amazing global organization, but what does it mean for me in my role in my country? There’s a global way of looking at it, but how does it land at a local level?
Then there’s sourcing and competition. You will have competition at a global level, where you’re dealing with a lot of global players similar to yourself, but there will also be very strong local players. Where do you want to stand out? What is your value proposition? Why should someone consider you above another global player or a strong local player? You need to have that in mind.
The last one is something we constantly try to get it right, and it is challenging. How do you ensure that the candidate experience is consistent? It shouldn't matter which country you are in. Certain industries get this right, and sometimes familiarity helps. The experience needs to be consistent at a baseline level, no matter where you go. Then, depending on the kind of person you are targeting, it can be tailored or calibrated. Retail and technology organizations tend to do this very well.
Aligning Recruitment with Business Needs
Lydia: So, in terms of looking at talent that is highly specialized, or you really need to fill this role and it's a very difficult role to fill, what kind of practical approaches have been successful when it comes to recruiting these types of individuals?
Rohit: Let me give you an analogy, and hopefully, it will help it land. The time to build a shed in the garden is not when it's raining; you do it when it's sunny. The analogy here is that if you know these skills are going to be in demand and your organization needs them, you must be prepared and do this well in advance before the actual demand hits your desk.
That's why being close to the business and understanding what those critical skills are, as well as what the business plan is going forward, is the most important thing. Once you have that alignment, it becomes a sequence of events, followed by discipline and execution.
Proactive sourcing is key. Build your pipeline and talk to people multiple times. It has been proven that you need seven engagements before something registers in someone’s mind. So, how do you do that in a thoughtful manner? Once you have engaged with someone and brought them into your target pipeline, how do you ensure the long-term nurturing relationship continues?
What is your engagement plan? Will you reach out to them once a month, once a quarter, or once in six months? Then, you also need to think about what the tailored process will be for them. If you know these people are highly in demand, are you going to put them through a five-interview process when you know they will make decisions quickly? Or will you use all the data you’ve collected from your previous interactions and conversations with them, so when the time comes, you can act and turn things around very quickly? So, using data to maintain your pipeline and check how it is working is also very important.
Lydia: So going back to your point of being close to the business and really understanding or trying your best to forecast those needs as it comes along. In terms of a recruiting team or talent acquisition team, what might be some best ways to do that in order to prepare themselves, and how long do you have to look ahead?
Rohit: So I always say, if you're going to talk to a business leader, you have to do one of two things: either tell them something they do not know or say something they already know but back it up with data. The moment you do this, you bring in a lot of credibility. That's step one.
Step two is understanding where the business is going, which is why it's really important to have not only formal but also informal interaction sessions, especially with the strategy team and business leaders whose job is to look ahead. They have to manage the present but also plan for the future, and this is where you need to be with them to understand what that future will look like.
Stephen Schwarzman, the former CEO of BlackRock, very famously said, "There's no business plan without a talent plan." A lot of organizations are now realizing this. In the past, money was easier to get, with a lot of venture capital (VC) funding floating around. The question was how to invest that money. When capital is not a problem, it's about finding the right people who can effectively use that capital. That always comes down to the people.
Once you talk to the business, you understand: this is my business now, this is what it will look like in the next two, three, or five years—whatever horizon you're working with. Then you ask, do I have the right people today, and will I have the right people tomorrow, given that my business will change?
The conversation then shifts to: if I have the people now, great, but if there’s a 50% gap, how am I going to fix that? Am I going to upskill them? Am I going to hire them? If hiring is the solution, what’s the strategy? Are we going to hire a lot of college graduates and train them? Do we need to bring in experienced people? Do we already have the right skill sets?
As a talent leader, it's your job to identify that gap and build a plan so you are well-prepared when the time comes. You cannot wait to address it at that moment; it has to be done well in advance.
Lydia: And I would imagine this also includes a very critical piece that you talked about earlier, in terms of shifts, the internal mobility piece, and also investing back into people. So in terms of looking into the organization to find that kind of talent, what might be some first steps to take to begin this process?
Rohit: I think the most important thing is to be self-aware. You need to have a very honest conversation with yourself and then with people you trust, asking, "These are my strengths. This is what I feel. Do you see it the same way?" What am I good at versus what are the areas I need to improve?
The second question is to ask yourself, "What is it that I want to do?" If you have clarity about what you want to do, along with clarity about what you’re good at versus where you want to improve, it will reveal the gap you need to fill. If you have that clarity, people who do well in their careers often play the long game.
By that, I mean you start looking within your network or larger organizations, asking, "If I want to build a particular skill, can I reach out to person A, B, or C?" Try to understand how they got to where they are. Is there a way for you to shadow them? Is it an assignment, a gig, or an opportunity where you can start building that skill?
The next point is talking to people who are decision-makers and letting them know you’re interested. Many times, people want to pursue something, but if you don’t tell the right people or show effort in that direction, it’s not going to go far.
Two things to always remember: first, the most important decisions about your career are made when you’re not in the room. This means you need to network, talk to people, and make sure they know what you’re doing. Second, no one is 100% ready for a job on day one. Whenever someone is promoted, they typically have 60–70% of the skills needed for the job, and the remaining 30–40% comes with time.
Now, not all jobs are like that. Some require you to be 100% ready on day one. So, you need to identify: are you pursuing roles where you need 100% readiness but only have 70%, meaning it’s not going to work? Or are you pursuing roles where you have 70% and can learn the rest on the job?
For example, as much as I like finance, no one is going to give me a CFO job because it’s not a role where you can learn on the job—you need to know it at a certain level from the start. But I could potentially get a program manager’s job because I have transferable skills and experience as a program manager.
So, you need to identify your transferable skills and build on them.
To recap:
- Be self-aware about what you want to do and your gaps.
- Network with people.
- Have a targeted plan to fill those gaps—whether through upskilling, mentoring, or assignments.
Hopefully, this will set you on the right path for the role you’re looking for.
Finding the Equilibrium Between Automation and Human Touch
Lydia: Now going back to the core recruitment process. We spoke about the extremes in recruitment, where there is a human touch and there is not at all until you turn up on your first day. So when it comes to balancing that automation, what might be the best way to balance automation with the human touch in the recruitment process, bear in mind that this is ultimately a people role in which there is interaction.
Rohit: It's a good question, and it's something a lot of organizations, including ours, struggle with. At the end of the day, what is automation about? It's all about efficiency, and what you're trying to do is maximize efficiency without losing the human touch.
There are certain ways we’ve approached this. First, look at your repetitive tasks. Is there an opportunity to automate those? From a talent perspective, this could mean screening profiles. If you receive thousands of profiles, can you automate that process? Can you schedule interviews using a tool rather than having someone manually match calendars?
While automating these tasks, it's also important to humanize key interactions. Even though a tool can handle many processes, it’s always better for a human to provide feedback. For example, if someone is getting a job offer, would you rather have a person say, "Congratulations, you’ve got the job," or receive an impersonal email? These are decisions organizations need to make. Personalized communication is where technology and human interaction can come together. Technology has advanced to the point where it can personalize a lot of messaging, but it still requires a thoughtful approach.
What’s extremely clear is that technology, including AI, is a support mechanism. The final decision, at the end of the day, must be made by a human. If you can strike that balance, you get the best of both worlds. It’s easier said than done, but many organizations are now trying to find that equilibrium. Initially, there was a swing toward heavy automation, and now the trend is moving toward restoring balance, which is a natural progression.
Lydia: And when automation comes into play, and even new technology that also means that it will yield more data. So in terms of getting that information, as you said about applying all those business needs and business knowledge onto that data, and really storytelling that and being able to convince your stakeholders.
Now, for recruiters who might be struggling or trying to understand how best to convince stakeholders within the company, what should they be thinking about when it comes to approaching technology that gives them the kind of critical data they need?
Rohit: One thing is, you really need to listen to the business leader or stakeholder you're working with. What is it that they are asking? That’s point one. You need to understand their business problem—what they’re looking at. Data and technology will give you a wealth of information. It can help you crystallize the issue and make it easier to address. Then, you need to apply all the information you have, combine it with the reality of what that individual is going through, and package it correctly.
Let’s take a real-life example. You mentioned hiring for difficult skills. Imagine you’re trying to open a Data Science Center, and you need 200 data scientists. The business leader comes to you and says, “I need 200 data scientists. Can you help me?” This is where technology can assist. Tools like Data Drop, Horsefly Analytics, or TalentNeuron can provide a lot of data: the best locations to target, cost estimates, insights into what other organizations are doing, and more. You can package all of this together.
However, you also need to understand the business reality. Why is the business leader asking for this? What pressures are they facing? Are we doing this because it’s currently too expensive for us elsewhere? Is it part of a long-term plan where, in three years, we want to build a Data Science Center? Or is this something that must happen in the next six months? Do I have $10 million to spend on this, or do I only have $1 million?
Otherwise, you might end up offering a Rolls Royce solution when all they have the budget for is an Alfa Romeo. Both are excellent options but for different needs. That’s the part no amount of technology or data will tell you. Technology and data provide the information, but you need to have that conversation with the leader, understand the context, and package everything in a way that’s helpful and actionable.
At the end of the day, when you go to a leader, you’re presenting information and recommendations. It’s about providing options but making a clear recommendation so the best decision can be made for the company.
Many times, what happens is that we throw a lot of data at the leader without offering any recommendations. This leaves them thinking, “What am I supposed to do with this?” That’s where your value comes in—helping to distill the information into actionable insights and guiding the decision-making process.
The Role of Reflection and Adaptation in Recruitment Success
Lydia: You've had plenty of experience in the recruitment field, obviously, and you might have seen so many successful placements or some unconventional things that might have happened. So in your experience, what would you say is your most memorable story in recruitment?
Rohit: Good question. I'll probably give you two stories. I think one was a great learning experience, and one is something that happened very early in my career. Why I like recruitment is because it's both an art and a science. Depending on what type of recruitment you're doing, sometimes the art part is dialed up, and sometimes the science part is dialed up.
Very early on in my career, when I was with a company called Infosys, it was in a high-growth stage. I remember being just one or two years into my job, and we had to hire 1,000 people in a quarter. It was a three-member team, and of course, there was some support to do it, but it was just given to us. That was when I learned how to really look at it from a supply chain perspective. How do you set processes in place? There were a lot of challenges and mistakes made along the way, but that’s when the science part of it came in, where it was a good mix of human resources, supply chain, and production. We did all of that, but we managed to do it. That was a memorable experience, and it gave me confidence that it can be done. I think sometimes you need to do something, and then it gives you a whole lot of confidence that you know it can be achieved.
The second time was a learning experience where I actually didn’t do too well, but it was a fantastic mechanism that helped me as I went ahead. I remember I had moved to Europe at the time, and we were trying to set up a very specialized team in Germany. This is when I came in. Looking back, I was slightly arrogant. I felt I had the answers. I had done it, all of that, and we said the same things, but it did not work. We did all the right things, and it did not work. We were really scratching our heads as to why it didn’t work.
Then, on reflection, we figured out that we didn’t spend enough time with the local team. We did not understand the cultural nuances of how to make this work. Some people need more time. We did not explain the process very well. We were not as structured as we thought. That was another memorable experience for another reason. You may have all the right answers, and by the book, it should work, but you cannot disregard human interaction and cultural nuances. That plays a huge role because the same statement can be interpreted in different ways depending on which part of the world you are in. That was a big learning experience for me. While eventually we got the project back on track, there were a lot of conversations, a lot of very radical candor moments, which helped shape thinking. It has also helped me as I've moved along in my career.
Lydia: Now, in terms of that experience, I'm curious to know, what was the main takeaway from that experience? So if you come with all the knowledge and something really should work, theoretically, you've seen it work before, but once applied onto a different market, it doesn't give you the results you're anticipating, or just simply doesn't work at all.
What might have been the takeaway there? Do you go in there as consultative first just to find out? Or do you completely go in there and execute?
Rohit: The mistake I made was I went in and executed straight away. The lesson I learned was, yes, you have a plan, but you always need to be humble and talk to the person on the ground, going back to the global versus local things.
This is the plan. This has worked in ABC. Can we sit down together to understand if you think it's going to work here? What are the challenges? What will work? What will not work? That was something that could have been done better. So it doesn't matter whether it's Germany, Vietnam, or the US. It doesn't matter.
I think whenever you have a plan, it's really important to be respectful and understand what the local realities are. What can go wrong? What will go right? And give yourself the time to be flexible, because if you're too rigid, it seems super obvious, but we tend to forget when we have to go very fast. Sometimes you need to slow down to power up. That one extra day, that one extra conversation, will save you a lot of time in the future. That's my big lesson.
As fast as you want to go, you cannot disregard the people on the ground who are going to be impacted and who will have the local information and knowledge. Once you've had that conversation, then you make the decision. But making a decision without giving that due consideration most times will not work out.
Take Risks and Keep Learning
Lydia: And finally, Rohit, having said all these things and knowing the landscape now, what advice would you give someone who is starting up in talent acquisition today?
Rohit: I think it's a good question because I remember my first boss, who was the Global Head of TA for my first company, really spoke to me a year after I was in the job. The first thing he said was, "You need to master the basics, and you need some time to master the basics."
So my one piece of advice would be the first three to five years of your career is just an investment. It's just learning. That's all you need to do, because there's something called pattern recognition. And pattern recognition only happens if you have got experience. You can have one good year, you can have a second good year, and by the third year, you can say, "I have seen this two times. All the data points suggest that it should go in this direction, but by experience, I think it's not going to work." So there's experience and intuition, which are two slightly different things.
The first thing I would say is, master the basics, stay adaptable. The other thing I would say is, be bold and take risks. When you're young in your career, there are a lot of options and opportunities. The scarier the opportunity, the more you're going to learn. So my recommendation would be, go for something which genuinely scares you. Of course, you should not be completely out there, but if it doesn't scare you, then you're not pushing yourself enough. So absolutely, go for that assignment where you know something, but you don't know everything, and you'll have to figure it out. The first two months are going to be very difficult, but those will be the most rewarding.
The other two ones which have really, the other three ones which have really helped me, is network. Most people will tend to have five or six organizations that they work for. You're going to meet a lot of people along the way. Network, because as you go ahead in your career, you will be surprised as to how many old colleagues you go back to, to ask for help, to ask for advice, to give you things. So don't burn your bridges. Network, that's going to be a massive, massive thing.
And the last two ones are, know your business. At the end of the day, you should be able to talk intelligently about your business and have a conversation with a business leader. If you think you cannot do that at this stage, that's fine. You can always learn. But if you cannot talk to a business leader, if they can't see the value that you are bringing in, you're going to be siloed and pigeonholed, and that's probably not a place where you want to be. So know your business.
And the last one is, keep learning. We talked about the changes when it comes to technology. We talked about the shifts. Some people learn through books, others learn through podcasts, someone learns through conversations. It doesn't matter. I think you need to have an outside-in perspective and keep learning.
So just to summarize, I would say, know your basics. That's fundamental. If you don't know sourcing, screening, things like this, which only comes with experience, everything else falls down. So that's the foundation of the building. Be bold. Know your business. Take risks, and keep learning.
Lydia: Thank you so much, Rohit for these wonderful insights. It's completely generous of you to be able to share this with us. So thanks a lot for your time, and for those who are listening in and may want to pick up a conversation with you or connect with you, where can they do so?
Rohit: LinkedIn is the best place to connect with me. Thank you so much for the opportunity and I am more than happy to connect if I can add some value in some way, I’d be glad to be able to do so.
Lydia: Thank you again, Rohit. We have been in conversation with Rohit Joshi, Globa Head of Talent Acquisition at Sanofi. Thank you for joining us, and remember to subscribe to stay tuned for more weekly episodes from All In Recruitment.
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