Ep119: McKinsey & Company - How to Approach Diversity and Affinity

All-In Recruitment is a podcast by Manatal focusing on all things related to the recruitment industry’s missions and trends. Join us in our weekly conversations with leaders in the recruitment space and learn their best practices to transform the way you hire.

This transcript has been edited for clarity.

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Lydia: Welcome to the All-In Recruitment podcast by Manatal, where we explore best practices, learnings, and trends with leaders in the recruitment space. If you like our content, please subscribe to our channels on YouTube and Spotify to stay tuned for our weekly episodes. 

I'm your host, Lydia, and joining us this week is Stephen Lee, who's most recently with McKinsey and Company. A pleasure to have you with us, Stephen.

Stephen: Thank you so much for having me.

Recruiting for Diversity in Leadership Roles

Lydia: So, Stephen, you obviously have vast experience in the TA and HR space. Tell us about some pivotal moments in your career that have kept you in this space.

Stephen: Well, I have 30-plus years in this space, based both on the HR and talent acquisition side. What has really kept me in the space is the fact that I truly have a passion for working with individuals. Meaning, from beginning to end, going out, sourcing, and recruiting talent from entry-level to executive-level positions. Also, from talent management, succession planning, and career management and development perspective, I have experience there. 

Then, also looking to make sure that the individuals I bring into an organization are not only considered for the job I'm hiring for but also for the next 24 months or 36 months—looking to see if they can be a great fit for the organization in their next role. So, not only am I bringing individuals in to be a great fit right away, but also to be a part of our talent pool internally, to get promoted, and to help the organization move forward. So that's why I've been in this space. I just have a truly great passion for bringing in talent and developing talent.

Lydia: So, Stephen, tell me about the eight months that you took to recruit the second in command of the CTO, for global CTO for McKinsey. I mean these eight months of relationship building, and I can imagine there might be many elements that went into that. 

Maybe you can walk us through what it takes to secure someone in that role.

Stephen: Well, definitely, what you need to do when you are looking at senior-level executives—anybody that's used to being in the C-suite—you have to cater, cater, and cater. So, when I say that, I put together an SLA, a service-level agreement, with the candidate in regard to our communication. When we would communicate, we had a cadence on a weekly basis so I could inform her about what was going on in regards to the recruiting process, what was coming up next, who she would be speaking with, and when the assessments would happen. Because at McKinsey, it's a very long process to bring partners and senior partners into the organization.

So, just to make sure that my candidate was feeling wanted, respected, and informed on a weekly basis, I would have these calls with her just to let her know what was coming up, what was happening on an ongoing basis, and also giving her insight in regards to who she would be chatting with so she would be very comfortable in regards to their backgrounds, their skill sets, and what they probably would like to chat about in regards to her background and skill set. 

So, for those eight months, there were some serious conversations going on.

Lydia: I would imagine both internal and also external.

Stephen: Yes, definitely external as well. So sharing information in regards to how she was feeling, if there was any hesitancy, or if there were any questions that the candidate had, making sure that I could go to the powers that be and get credible, reliable information to share. So not only was she getting informed, but everybody internally at McKinsey was up to speed on what was going on with the candidate and things of that nature. So you're truly juggling and being a subject matter expert and a consultant on both sides.

‍Lydia: Now in terms of affinity and diversity recruiting, what are some areas of focus in this space at the moment?

‍Stephen: Yes. So definitely when you're looking at diversity and affinity, it covers all facets– everything from race, ethnicity, gender, and sexual orientation. In my most recent role at McKinsey, I was looking for women, people of color, individuals from the LGBTQ community, and veterans. 

So we at McKinsey wanted to make sure we brought in a diverse group of leaders into the organization.

Lydia: Now, in terms of keeping this as a concerted area of focus, what is the business impact of focusing on affinity and diversity recruiting?

Stephen: Huge impact, especially not only with McKinsey, but I also worked for companies like Nike and Home Depot. So, when you are looking to increase revenue and increase, you know, your space in the market, you want individuals that are going to look, you know, like your customer base. So, you want to bring in women. You want to bring in individuals from the Latina community and the African American community because those are the individuals who buy your products.

So, for me, in the organizations I've worked for, I've been lucky to be able to work with organizations that truly, truly feel that, hey, we want our executives, we want our individuals in-house, to mirror our customer base that's out there. So, I think that's a great philosophy and a great way to look at business from an overall perspective.

Lydia:  In terms of measuring all these efforts, how do you measure that impact in terms of affinity and diversity?

Stephen: As you look internally at your organization, you want to make sure that you have a diverse group of individuals in all of your groups. When I say groups, I mean client groups, meaning sales, IT, HR. You want to make sure internally that your numbers reflect what's out in America or what's out there globally. So you want to make sure you have a diverse workforce in every part of your organization.

So, those numbers, from an internal perspective, looking at the metrics—meaning women, people of color, individuals from the LGBTQ community, and also veterans—you want to make sure you have a true, true diverse organization, and your numbers need to reflect that internally. From an ROI perspective, yeah, definitely. I can't give you specific numbers, but I know places like when I was at Nike, Home Depot, Kraft Foods, and Miller—any organizations that were truly consumer-driven—by having individuals from a diverse perspective, I know it impacted our numbers and our revenue. It had to, just based on the fact of us having a diverse group of professionals internally. Again, I couldn't give you the specific numbers, but I just know it did.

Addressing Misconceptions in DE&I Recruiting

Lydia: When you talk to people about diversity recruiting, do you do face misconceptions still at this moment? What are some of the common misconceptions you might have encountered?

Stephen: Yes. I mean, some individuals, again, we have a diverse group of folks, not only here in the United States but globally. And so they may look at diversity in a very positive light, in regards to, yeah, we need as much diversity as possible. What's happening right now in the US is that a lot of companies are really backpedaling and not diving into diversity like they did earlier. I guess in the last couple of years, DE&I was huge, but now a lot of organizations are backpedaling based on the fact of social media, individuals who don't look at diversity like I possibly do, and people starting to not purchase products based on how an organization approaches diversity.

So I think right now, in the US, it's like 50/50, depending on what sort of industry you're in, which dictates how you look at diversity. If you feel that, “Hey, we're getting a lot of backlash based on DE&I and not trying to be a diverse organization, some organizations are going to pull back. But other organizations are really running toward diversity, meaning they want more diversity based on who their clients and customers are across the US and globally. 

So I think it depends on who you are and what type of industry you're in.

Lydia: Stephen, when we speak about diversity recruiting and that being an area of focus, what is the impact, or what does it look like in terms of the recruitment process itself? Would there be an additional step in there? Or is it an added dimension to stakeholder management and how does data come into play in this sense?

Stephen: What I've seen has been very successful is when your CEO, CFO, CHRO, your executive leadership team, truly, truly gives you air cover and, as stakeholders, provides you support to go out and find that diversity. I've seen some organizations go so far as to look at the entire organization and where there's a lack of diversity—whether it's women or people of color—and demand that the leader of that particular part of the organization brings in diversity at a high level.

So, when I say at a high level, I mean manager level and above, where they can make an impact by bringing in a hiring manager who can then also bring in other diverse candidates as well. I've seen that happen at certain organizations, and those are the organizations I think do the best when you have a specific headcount or FTE allotted for a diverse candidate—not just an entry-level candidate, but a manager or director-level—where that person can truly make an impact. So that's something that I truly, truly respected and really enjoyed because you had the support from the top down, and you had air cover from the top down.

Tailoring the DE&I Discussion for Impact

Lydia: What might be some ways to approach bringing this topic into a company if they have not had affinity and diversity as an area of focus for recruitment? In terms of bringing that conversation into a company that has not had that kind of focus, what might be some approaches that a recruiter or talent leader can employ?

Stephen: Specifically, what we should be doing as talent acquisition leaders, or what have you, is we should be the SMEs, the subject matter experts. So, we need to know not only what's going on in the industry as a whole when it comes to diversity and who has been successful, but even within your specific industry, within your specific state or city. You should be able to go in, not be a bull in a china shop, but really educate and meet leaders and executives where they're at in regards to diversity and affinity in hiring in that space.

Because some individuals, again, we all come from different backgrounds, and some individuals may not look at diversity the way you and I may look at it. 

So, you’ve got to move a little bit slower, be a little bit more empathetic and sympathetic, but still share metrics and facts around the industry, around the region, and things of that nature, so they can truly understand how diversity can impact the organization. 

Especially if you can share data from a competitor, or like a competitor, or an organization that you know the leaders you're working with look up to. McKinsey does a great job at looking at diversity from a professional services standpoint, sharing data with our clients on how metrics can impact, how diversity can impact metrics, and things of that nature. So, you really want to be able to share data and just meet folks where they're at.

Lydia: In terms of sourcing or finding candidates, are there specific channels, or is there a specific strategy that works when it comes to diversity or affinity recruiting?

Stephen: Well, I mean, yes and no, but definitely, you have to be specific in regards to sourcing—meaning having a ratio of diverse candidates in your candidate slate, you know, being innovative and creative in regards to how you go out and find talent. Whether you want to partner up with trade organizations or educational organizations to find talent. For example, I've had a lot of success and have been an ambassador for different companies at, like, the National Black MBA, National Hispanic MBA, National Society of Black Engineers, and Hispanic Engineers. You know, Society of Women Engineers—just different trade organizations that are out there where you can partner up and really try to find talent for your organization. So that's one way you can go about it.

And now, with AI, there are a lot of platforms out there that you can utilize that tie in with LinkedIn and other platforms where you can use specific Boolean searches to look for specific individuals, not only domestically but globally. And there are some tools out there from an AI perspective where you can specifically look for only veterans, only African Americans, only women, only Hispanics, only Asians, and again, both domestically and globally. So, there are some great tools out there right now that you can utilize to help you out.

Creative Solutions for Attracting Diverse Executives

Lydia: Now, within this space, do you see any emerging trends looking forward to the next year or the near future?

Stephen: Well, definitely, utilizing AI is going to be a great tool to use when you're trying to find diversity. Even though these trade organizations have been around and they have career fairs and job fairs, I think another way to go out and find this talent as well is by specifically targeting Black Alumni Associations on college campuses, outside of just HBCUs.

Also, I think individuals are going to start thinking outside the box in regards to how to grab executive-level talent, whether it's doing meet-and-greets, having dinners, you know, having different types of opportunities where you can bring in diverse talent and have them meet with your executive leadership teams. Again, whether it's like a meet-and-greet, a dinner, or some sort of training where individuals can all come in and do a learning session, but then after that, have an opportunity to network.

You just have to think outside the box when you're trying to find this talent, and not only do it face-to-face, but utilize Zoom or Teams to have meetings, meet-and-greets, and things of that nature. But definitely, to find diverse talent, you've got to think outside the box, and you've got to be innovative and creative.

Lydia: So you've had 30 years of experience in this space, and I'm sure you have so many stories to talk about when it comes to recruitment. But what is one story perhaps that stands out in your entire career?

Stephen: I would say since we're talking about affinity and diversity recruiting—and I'll talk about something most recent—I had the honor of hiring McKinsey's number two global CTO for all of McKinsey. A great, great candidate, an African American female. I was able to get her from Deloitte, and it took me eight months to cultivate that relationship, get her through assessments, get her through interviews, and get her on board.

To me, that was one of the claims to fame of my career, because this is a very important position that she's going to be filling, and she could end up being the number one CTO leader of all of McKinsey. And that's because I went out, sourced her, and brought her on board.

Lydia: For those who are starting out in the recruitment space today, with all the technology and all that changing dynamic in the candidate expectations and what you're supposed to look out for in terms of business needs, what advice would you give someone who's starting out in the recruitment space today?

Stephen: Definitely, one of the things I try to do with folks is mentor. You know, young talent acquisition individuals, recruiters, and HR folks. So, I would definitely tell a person to get a mentor because there's a lot to learn. Again, I've been doing this for over 30 years. So, you know, I'm an individual that can go out and source candidates—not only go out and find candidates for hard-to-fill positions but also learn how to source, and learn how to do behavioral-type interviewing so you can really screen candidates thoroughly.

Also, don't be afraid of technology. Don't be afraid of AI. Try to find out what's the best, the newest, and the most innovative tools and resources to use. And definitely, from a LinkedIn perspective, try to get your contacts and things of that nature up to par. I mean, just try to meet as many folks as you can because you never know when you're going to need those contacts later on in your career. From a recruiting standpoint, in my opinion, there's no way you can have too many contacts. You can always, you know, look on LinkedIn, look at an individual's profile, see who they're connected to, and see if they can connect you with individuals if you're working on a certain position.

So, those types of things, to me, are very, very important. And always continue to edify yourself. If there's any training out there—for example, I know at one time AIRS was a big training program for talent acquisition folks—even to the point where, as a recruiter, it wouldn't be bad to get a PHR or SPHR certification as well from an HR perspective. Because HR individuals you're working with internally will definitely have an understanding that you get a feel for their... You get a feel for—let's start over. Hopefully, you can edit this out—but you get an opportunity to understand how an HR person works if you have a PHR or SPHR.

You know, that really, really gives you credibility internally, with the HR folks you may be working with, as well as your hiring managers. Not only do you know how to recruit, but you’re also familiar with HR laws, policies, procedures, and what have you.

Lydia: Thank you so much for your time and these generous insights. I mean, these have been great, and I'm sure they're valuable to whoever's listening in so. If anyone wants to contact you, Stephen, what's the best platform? Is LinkedIn being one of them?

Stephen: Yes, definitely. LinkedIn is a great way to get in contact with me. I'm sure you guys can share that information with the listeners and the viewers. They can also contact me via Instagram. I have my Instagram, which is seven, the number seven keys to failproof living (@7keystofaillproofliving). That's not only a platform you can reach me in regards to diversity and affinity and talent acquisition, but I'm also a published author, and my book is out there as well.

Lydia: Thanks again, Stephen, and I wish you all the best, and thanks again for all these insights. We have been in conversation with Stephen Lee, who was most recently with McKinsey and Company. 

Thank you for joining us, and remember to subscribe to stay tuned for more weekly episodes from All-In Recruitment.