EP105: Versuni - How to Spot Candidates’ Hidden Potential

All-In Recruitment is a podcast by Manatal focusing on all things related to the recruitment industry’s missions and trends. Join us in our weekly conversations with leaders in the recruitment space and learn their best practices to transform the way you hire.

This transcript has been edited for clarity.

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Lydia: Welcome to the All-In Recruitment podcast by Manatal, where we explore best practices, learnings, and trends with leaders in the recruitment space. If you like our content, please subscribe to our channels on YouTube and Spotify to stay tuned for our weekly episodes.

I'm your host, Lydia, and this week, we have Daisy Ilaria of Versuni. Welcome to the show, Daisy.

Daisy: It's an absolute pleasure to be here, Lydia. Thank you so much for having me on.

The Initiator and Mediator

Lydia: Daisy, you're a podcast host yourself, as I understand, right? So, how has that helped you in your Talent Acquisition roles, or was it the other way around? How did that start?

Daisy: Good question. I believe it's the other way around. So being in the TA space helped me to be a good podcast host. I'm a terrible guest. I think I prefer to be in your seat, Lydia—asking the questions as I like to learn from others. So, from my candidates, hiring managers, and also from my guests.

I like to be the initiator and mediator between the audience who wants to learn and the guest who actually has a lot of experience. I've technically had it since 2019, during COVID, when I hosted it online like this, but only recently, since December, we really amped up on production, bought some cameras, and microphones, and decided to do it face to face. So since January, we relaunched with a new name and new production and so far it has been four or five months, nearly.

Lydia: Oh, exciting. You've also just started at Versuni in your new role, right? Congratulations. What are some areas that you've prioritized in this role?

Daisy: Thank you very much. We actually just got the number one employer badge on LinkedIn. So, huge congratulations to the entire team at Versuni, particularly the recruitment team that I’m in because they were the ones responsible for our employer branding and also hiring the most amazing talent that joined Versuni. So yes, to anyone who’s watching or listening, come join us, because we’re the number one company.

My role at Versuni—so, I’ve only been there for four weeks already, but I’m hiring across the EMEA region. So, this is Europe, the Middle East, and Africa, which is a new experience for me. I’m also a bit of a generalist at the moment, so hiring across marketing, IT, sales, etc. So, it’s a really exciting and interesting time to work at Versuni, as we’re hyper-growing as well, at the moment. So far, so good.

Understanding the Business and Prioritizing Positions

Lydia: How do you go about structuring those priorities that you have? I mean, there are so many roles that you need to look into as you take on a new role like this and probably face a really large region. Which one do you prioritize and how do you set that list?

Daisy: Good question. I mean, when hiring managers come to you, they always say, “Oh, I need someone yesterday, This role is urgent,” and, “It is a high-priority role.” It's just about understanding the business needs. I think as I’m in my four weeks in the business, having a specific amount of position. So, my limit right now is around 15 to 20 jobs, just so I don't overload myself. I'm also participating in some projects, which I'll tell you later about.

So, it's just about understanding what is really urgent, prioritizing the positions, whether it's a backfill, whether it's a brand new role. As a recruiter with experience, you normally understand how to prioritize your list and make a schedule. I have an ATS system I work with. But I also always—no matter what company I've worked at—I always have my own personal spreadsheet with the information, just so if I get a random question from a hiring manager or my manager or the team about my processes, I'm just up to date, because it's a lot to remember. It’s like, 15-20 jobs with 100s or 1000s of candidates. It's a lot to remember, and I can't keep it in my brain. So, it's always important to be really organized, schedule, and rely on the data as well.

Lydia: Versuni has just gotten that badge, as you said, the Employer of Choice on LinkedIn. So, within these four weeks that you've had in this new role, how do you set Versuni apart from its competitors, or within the space itself? How does Versuni differentiate itself to attract all top candidates in competitive markets?

Daisy: Very good question. We do have a lot of competition, particularly in Europe to be the number one employer, and we didn't get that badge for no reason as well. So, what I've noticed in my first couple of weeks, and also with recruiting, is the fact we're so flexible.

We offer 30 days of flexible working abroad. So, you can be based anywhere and work for 30 days wherever you want. So, my location for this year will be Italy and Istanbul, which I'm really excited about. I've never been to Istanbul and I'll visit an office that we have there as well.

Lydia: Two locations in 30 days, is that it?

Daisy: Yes. You can do it during the year, and you can go wherever you like. So, one of my colleagues is going to Greece, another is going to Spain, another is going to Thailand for a couple of weeks. I believe this is a huge benefit a lot of companies can take on board.

We have the highest pension contribution as an employer from across the Netherlands, benchmarked. I think it's absolutely amazing, particularly if you want to stay long-term at a company. You can see that they really give back and help you out. And of course, the large discounts on all our products as you've heard of, for example, Philips Airfryer, toothbrush, laser hair removal machine, etc, Gadget, coffee machine, and we have new products coming which are really cool and which are home domestic products. So, that's a really huge perk, because they're probably the best around, and we have early access and a lot of discounts, so that's also really good.

I also think it’s the flexibility. We have a lot of parents who work with Versuni. I even asked in my interview, “I might want to be a mother in the future. How do you cater?” I was very bold in my interview, and I asked this just to make the right decision to join the company and I think everyone should do this as well. They basically explained to me that you can have extended maternity or paternity leave and you can buy your holidays. It's very flexible holiday days as well and they really cater to new parents as well. So, I think it’s flexibility as well as a very inclusive employer that makes it really attractive for people looking for a new job or looking to make a switch.

Looking for That Flexibility

Lydia: These are priorities for people who are looking for a balance, I would say. I mean, between the working world that we used to see before, versus what priorities are today, in terms of lifestyle and just living.

So, compensation packages aside, or all these other perks and benefits aside, generally, in your experience as a recruiter, how do you think candidate expectations have changed recently?

Daisy: Good question. Conversation aside, I think I heard this recently at a networking recruitment event I went to. I believe it was like the panel speakers and also the presentation, the fact that people now are really looking for that flexibility from the employer. People really have different needs and I think since COVID, people realize they can do a lot of stuff by not being in the office.

Of course, having a culture, it's easier whilst people go to the office and they're physically present, but if your company has a strong enough working culture, you can really have it spread out globally, across the world. So, I think the biggest thing people asked for job offers, or in general, particularly from this event that I went to was flexibility because life is uncertain. Your parents might fall sick, for example, or a friend and you have to go back and stay with them, or something happens to your pet. There are such uncertainties in life. I think it's relevant for employers to work around you as well. Your needs always change, and maybe a benefit that you receive for one year of your employment might not be relevant for the next year.

So, I think it's just about having that flexibility with where you're working, how many days you go to the office, and also the autonomy. Having trust from your employer, I think, is just sounds really basic, but it's really in demand, and it's surprising how many employers can’t give that.

Lydia: These are expectations that are actually fundamentally already there, even before COVID-19. It's just taken on a new spotlight, so to speak. It's gotten its own spotlight now because we've seen how lives are impacted because of different changes that are coming, and then you've got economic changes as well, where there is that need for some kind of stability taking on a role and compensation is obviously important, but you're also looking for perhaps growth.

Would that be one of those expectations of those coming into the workforce who are looking for space to grow and really build their skill sets or careers?

Daisy: Yeah, I totally agree with you.

Crossing the Intersection of Personal Branding and Automation

Lydia: So, how do you think the role of a recruiter, has evolved in recent years? I mean, we're looking at changing candidate expectations. So, how should a recruiter upskill themselves, or what kind of traits should they have, to be able to build a career in this industry today?

Daisy: That's such a good question. I think for anyone who says it hasn't changed, I think they're a little bit mistaken and I think you get this answer all the time, and it's either personal branding. I think it's really up there as a skill and also automation like AI—involving technology within your workflow, it's just super important. I mean, companies are doing it in general, whether it's food companies automating their food production or logistics, even like companies like Versuni, we're automating some things at the moment as well, but recruitment teams and HR teams should get on board.

The tricky thing is, of course, with GDPR compliance, etc., but AI can really automate the boring and administrative tasks, and we can focus on the stuff we're good at, and we enjoy, like conversations like this, and not worrying about typing our notes and send it to the hiring manager. So, it's really important to get on board because it's only going to get more technical and automated.

It's good to jump on the bandwagon now, and just some basic soft skills, resiliency, which I think is important, and listening. I mean, we love to talk. I find that most of us are extroverts in recruitment, but listening is our biggest skill. Listen to your hiring manager, boss, team, the business, and the candidates, because that's how you be the best recruiter.

Lydia: Yes, and you've got your own podcast, and you also spoke about personal branding is a big driver of a recruiter's performance, or rather, a recruiter's reach to a candidate.

Has that kind of personal brand of yours had an impact on your ability to reach more people as a recruiter?

Daisy: I think so. It benefits my job and I think it just adds a bit more credibility. You're also the voice, and sometimes the first person who introduces the company to a stranger. So, I believe before this call, maybe you haven’t heard about Versuni, but I'm sure people will know about it now.

Normally, we're like the gatekeepers of the company, so it's important for us to showcase the good bits about the company. The benefits, how the culture is, etc., and our LinkedIn profiles are perfect for that, and we talk to and get exposure to a lot of people candidates every single day. I think it’s mandatory for us to have a voice and a presence online and I think it just adds credibility as well.

If you're putting yourself out there, you're giving advice about job hunting or interviews as an established recruiter, I think that also adds credibility and then it's trust, all that psychology behind it. Of course, it also helps my networking side. I think since 2016, I've gotten jobs through networking and referrals, and I've not really applied or sent my CV across to get employed. So, it's helped me both ways, actually, with hiring people for a company and also for my own benefit as well, which is amazing.

Lydia: Now, Daisy, automation is the other thing that you talked about earlier. So you see, we obviously see automation being implemented everywhere, not just in recruitment processes. But how does Versuni, or maybe your experience in the past, obviously, in the recent years when post-COVID maybe, how has the use of automation improved efficiency and effectiveness and recruitment in your experience?

Daisy: Good question. I don't know how much I can say about what we're implementing at Versuni at the moment, only time will tell. But, we are looking into and testing AI and automation tools. We're definitely using Copilot, which is part of Microsoft. It's a great tool, but there's plenty out there as well. An interviewing tool such as Metaview, for example, I think a lot of people have heard about, transcribes your interviews in the background as you're speaking, so you can have a connection like this with a candidate flawlessly without typing notes and side-eyeing as you're talking to someone. We also use ChatGPT, Gemini, and Claude. They're all fantastic tools for note-taking.

So, lots of new technology and tools have introduced a lot of AI, and calendar scheduling, right to your calendar for candidates as well. It's integrated now into LinkedIn, which I think is pretty cool. Microsoft has done the same for Outlook, if anyone uses it.

Yes, lots of automation tools that can make our lives easier and better as recruiters. I could name all of them. There are hundreds, but I'd say the better ones are ChatGPT, Copilot, Metaview, etc.

Conquering Imposter Syndrome with a CV Makeover

Lydia: As a recruiter, Daisy, is there a particular aspect of this job or this role within an organization that you find the most appealing to you, and the one thing that drives you to stay in this role?

Daisy: Helping people. It sounds really vague, but that's what the role is. At the end of the day, it's nothing to do with me, actually. I'm normally the mediator, negotiator, and facilitator. I think it just brings me a lot of energy and joy, still, nearly after 10 years of being in HR and recruitment to help people get their dream jobs, whether it's at my company or a different company, and the hiring manager in the business, fill that gap, get that skilled person in, grow their team, help their team, help the business overall.

It's just that drive to help the business and help the candidates that set my world on fire.

Lydia: I can imagine just having that little bit of impact and seeing a person's career take on a brand new trajectory itself might be a reward in itself, right?

Daisy: Yeah, it is. It really is. If you're not in recruitment, you should look into it. This could also be your passion.

Lydia: So, what is your favorite recruitment story, Daisy, in your experience?

Daisy: I have so many. How much time have we got?

One story that really sticks to mind—I think the beauty of Talent Acquisition is that you can help people professionally, but if you have all this knowledge you can really help family and friends. So, one of my friends recently was laid off at the company. I worked with her together and we're laid off together. Fortunately, she really felt inspired and ambitious and wanted to go for a very big job at a bigger company, a global, multi-million, fashion company.

But she reached out to me and said, “Daisy, my CV is a mess. I don't feel qualified enough for this position.” But something's telling me to go for it. So of course, as a good friend with recruitment skills and inside knowledge, I had to help her out. I gave her some pep talks about interview techniques. Then she had interviews with the CEO and HR vice president— very big titles, which can be very daunting for someone who feels like they're underqualified.

I used to do some career coaching in my spare time a few months ago, and I applied this to her as well because she had a bit of imposter syndrome. So, I coached her with the interviews, rewrote her CV, made it absolutely flawless with her experience, and she had interviews. She got the job as the office manager and executive assistant to the CEO, which is crazy. She got a nice pay upgrade as well, good benefits, and now she works for this multi-million dollar fashion company after being laid off for a few months.

So, I think that's probably my favorite story. Just having these skills helps absolutely everyone, and you can make someone so happy for free as well. It was a really rewarding experience.

Lydia: How is she doing now in that role?

Daisy: She's thriving. She's really born to do that. If she was still in that mindset where she didn't feel good enough to do it, she wouldn’t apply for it, then she would have never got the chance, and the company would have never given her a chance as well. So, I think it's also kudos to the company to look beyond the CV and actually interview her and speak to her, to get her on board as well. It was just a good match, and they both didn't know it, and it was just great to bring them together.

Looking Beyond Candidates’ CV for Hidden Potential

Lydia: Moving to your point of looking beyond the CV as a recruiter, Daisy. When you look at a CV, are there more questions that you have about what could possibly have been done in this role that this person would have or has done previously?

What would they have that could contribute to a new role? What do you look for in a candidate? Do you look at the existing skills, or do you look at potential? And where do you think there should be a little more weight given when it comes to looking at CVs?

Daisy: Good question. I think skill-based hiring is completely on the rise. I believe LinkedIn ran a study, and they're predicting that this would be the biggest way of recruiting for this year. I mean, in Europe alone, we are so short of technical talent and marketing talent and engineering talent that it's like, “Okay, we've tried Plan A which is having people apply and trying to find the perfect person, but why don't we just look outside and speak to people and understand their backgrounds and see how their transferable skills can be met with this position?”

So, I try to see beyond the CV as well. It's difficult because it's just a piece of paper, essentially, or PDF with writing on it, but you normally get a good picture of like how one person's career trajectory has gone and what they've contributed to the company. So, a big tip for anyone listening or watching is to put achievements in your job experience, not like the job description.

I think a lot of people make this mistake of putting responsibilities in their job descriptions on their CVs, instead of actually what they achieved at the company, because this gives us a better picture of like, “Okay, you achieved this at your previous company. It gives us an insight into what you can contribute if we gave you X amount of budget, if we gave you X amount of freedom, and you worked with us.”

Lydia: From a recruiter's point of view, Daisy, when you look at a CV and you're trying to match that with an existing role, what really stands out? I mean, as you said, it's achievements and to look at transferable skills.

But for those who might be struggling to make that match, I would imagine you'd have to spend a little longer looking at those achievements and trying to translate that to what a job description really needs from a candidate.

What kind of steps do they have to take to really look and spend time on a CV to see what might be the potential of a candidate?

Daisy: Yeah, good question. It really depends on the companies and the positions they're applying for. I think if the job description is quite detailed and it explains, like the pain points and what you'll exactly be doing in that role, just trying to remember or put in the specific achievements that you've had or done relating to what they're looking for as well.

You want it to align as closely as possible, of course, without lying to get the job you're applying for. You can always add a cover letter if there's not enough room in your CV to explain absolutely everything as an extension and really go into detail like, “I see you need this. Here is how I can help, essentially.”

So, that's how I would go about doing that. It really varies though, per the company mission that you're applying for and per the job description. But as a recruiter, we have like job intake meetings with the hiring manager prior to launching the position. So, whilst we're headhunting on LinkedIn or we're looking through applications, we always have that mindset of when we speak to the hiring manager, “Okay, this is the team structure and this is what they're looking for. This is the goal, this is the objective. This is how they're going to drive the business forward.” So, with that in mind, you will try and match.

Of course, not everyone's CVs is identical to each other because people like to express themselves differently. So, I think with experience, you learn to dissect a CV and understand it. If you still don't, it's good to contact the candidate and hop on a call with them for a quick five to 10-minute chat to understand why they applied for the role, how they think their experience is relevant, etc.

It doesn't hurt to just dive in and ask some questions directly to the person who applied.

Lydia: Thank you so much, Daisy. I mean this has been a great conversation. You've obviously gleaned a lot of knowledge from your own experience, as well as those who have come on your podcast, and you've seen the importance of really looking and listening to both sides, both the candidates and also what an organization needs in terms of filling those seats and getting the right kind of talent in.

So, thank you so much for these insights, Daisy. For those listening in, this is the time for you to share your podcast details and maybe the best platform on which they can contact you.

Daisy: Thanks, Lydia, it's been an absolute pleasure to speak with you as well and to share some knowledge and wisdom. Hopefully for those listening and watching for Versuni, for the company, if you want to see if we're hiring, just go on our LinkedIn. We're posting jobs quite frequently. You can also visit our website, versuni.com.

You can catch me, Daisy Ilaria on LinkedIn, or my podcast where I interview recruitment professionals from everywhere, Google, Uber, Booking, etc., to get insights directly from the source. It's called Talent Exchange podcast and you can find us on YouTube and Spotify. Thank you so much.

Lydia: Excellent. Thanks again, Daisy. We have been in conversation with Daisy Ilaria of Versuni. Thank you for joining us, and remember to subscribe to stay tuned for more weekly episodes from All-In Recruitment.